#105910 - 02/04/04 12:59 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Whit, I know you well enough to know that you are coming from the right place....wanting the best for the members of the AMA, and I would not question that. I'd point out that the best way to communicate with your Board, is to communicate *with your Board*, not by posting messages on a public Board. You state:
"I have felt that we needed a new clubhouse for several years, for the many reasons that I have already stated. I think that the time to move is now." This is complete contradiction to what your Board is attempting to do, get a new lease in the current location. They may be considering other options. I hope that they are. But you surely don't advocate that when you would be in the middle of a lease negotiation, yourself, that you would be telling the person you are negotiating with that you don't really want the lease, that you are looking at other properties, etc? Neither should we.
You state "I am not surprised by your obvious leaning toward the Castle Partners. You seem to share their feeling that a "successful" Magic Castle is one that is full and "making money" every night of the week. I am not sure that that is the measure of success that most of the members would use." I'd agree that is not the measure that I'd use, either. On the other hand, I don't think that having the Castle empty and losing money is, either, eh? So, a new approach is reasonable.
You seem to accept that accepting the charity of the Glovers is an entitlement. That the business model that includes that is the norm...it is NOT.
I have trouble with the righteous attitude that
we somehow have the right to a huge subsidy, with basically nothing in return. This is not fundamentally right.
You say: "If members are not able to get into the shows on Mon, Tues, Wed as well as Thur, Fri, and Sat that is not necessarily an improvement." I'd agree. But I often find, that on MTW, I cannot net into a show, because there IS no show, as there are not enough people for one.
You state: "If we are required to have dinner when we come, or at least a certain number of times a month or year, that is not necessarily an improvement." I agree, but this is disingenuous, as I've seen no one suggest that this is under consideration. You might as well say "if we are required to bring 50 guests when we come."
You state: "The problems we are facing come from unavoidable rising costs, such as worker's comp, other increasing costs, and a higher "minimum" rent." Note that we have no idea what the relative contributions from these are. We may have been meeting the minimum, for all we know.
You said: "I have always appreciated and valued what the Glovers have done for us, and do not begrudge them making money on their own property."
This was the point that I think no one had previously expressed. And that is the crux, eh?
If it reasonable for them to make the profit that the property deserves (due to location), and they are making vastly less, what is reasonable for them to get, in return? As a recently married man, you understand that long-term relationships are based upon equitable sharing, not one-sided deals, even if contractually enforcible.
So that may be what it really comes down to: the property has appreciated beyond what the AMA can afford. We may be able to negotiate a favorable monitary situation, but it is NOT reasonable that there will not be some other price to pay, such as some control of operations. You may think that there is other property nearby that would devote itself to us, but I find that hard to believe...without a huge cost attached.
You state: "I just do not want them, or anyone, running my club. They are the landlords. If they want to run the business, they should run for the board of directors." Once again, a disingenuous argument. You suggest a pathway, that you know will fail. Not being the stupid people that you seem to paint them, they have chosen a different path to running the business. Which path seems more likely to achieve the goal of running the business. A number of people have suggested owning the property. I suppose that is an equally reasonable option: Buy the Glover's entire business operation, then we will be able to assure the business in the area. I wonder why we aren't discussing this option?
I'll finish by saying this: We would consider it rude, arrogant, and offensive, if Iraq was carrying on a campaign to inform us citizens of what our government was doing in negotiations. We criticize CP for "going behind the back of the Board". And yet, while they and the AMA Board are in negotiations, we berate them for not explaining things to AMA members. That is NOT their job, and we should NOT be asking them to go behind the backs of the Board again!
It is the job of the Board to inform the members, educate us as to the facts, discuss with us the options, and seek our guidance (which they have not done!)
Pete, that was one of the best thought-out statements I've seen.
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#105911 - 02/04/04 03:25 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Regarding the previous few postings,
I think everyone feels the Glovers have a right to do what they want with the property. It has been great that they chose in the past not to extract maximum value, but if they choose differently now, I don't believe any reasonable person would think less of them. They own the property and need to make their own decisions about what they want to do.
Pete has really hit the nail on the head regarding the confusion being shown in this thread concerning whether the "Magic Castle" is a quasi-public institution, a private club, or a for-profit entertainment venue. It seems to me that the people who argue that the Castle Partners &/or the Glovers should get to do what they want because current management is supposedly not able to run it successfully, are under the mistaken impression that either it is quasi-public or a pure for-profit entertainment operation, and therefore the old management/members are not entitled to any squatter's rights that might reduce the entertainment value/opportunity for the larger public, or indeed the opportunity for someone else to make more money from the concept.
It seems like some people find it hard to accept that it really is a club/private activity, and it is the AMA & Milt who must decide what meets their respective needs, which are not the same as having a successful public entertainment venue. Whether or not the AMA has internal problems is really irrelevant. If they do, they should deal with them. But it doesn't mean the AMA has forfeited any rights of ownership. Similarly, if they & Milt are poor managers, it is still theirs to manage as they can, for the benefit of the members.
Whether the loss of control the AMA would have to give up to CP to stay there is worth it, is something the club needs to decide. I'm an outsider, so I can't vote. But as Whit says, the AMA is about a lot more than entertaining the public and making money, and it would be a shame for it to disappear as a real organization by giving up control over its space and activities. However, it may be that subcontraacting delivery of some services to CP could be a good thing.
Regarding AMA members discussing things in this forum - I don't know the AMA rules for this, but it does seem to me that no one is "leaking" inside information. They are just politely expressing personal opinions. Its hard to see the harm in that.
Finally, in regard to the statement in an earlier post that if an AMA member expresses the view that the AMA should move, he is harming the negotiations with CP/Glovers - this just flatly contradicts everything I have read about negotiating and experienced myself in negotiating. If the opposite party feels you have no other options but to strike a deal with them, then they hold all the cards and bargain very hard. They will feel they do not have to make any concessions. If they believe that you have other options, and have half a mind to go with them, then they are much more motivated to accomodate your needs in order to make a deal. I would think the more the AMA validates that moving is a realistic option, then the better the negotiations will go, if the CP have any desire to negotiate at all, as opposed to a take or leave it attitude.
My 2 cents.
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#105912 - 02/04/04 04:38 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Canuck:
I agree with you, especially on your last statement. I think it is important for our board and the Castle Partners to know that there are plenty of members who are willing, and some even anxious to move to a new venue.
Further, the BoD and Milt are reading everything on this board and on the Magic Castle Forum. They have solicited these sorts of comments from the membership, and have asked those participating in these online discussions to continue. They want to hear our ideas, and to get a sense of where the membership is leaning.
To act as if we are negotiating a labor dispute is ridiculous. There shouldn't be any secret plans or negotiating postures at all.
Basically, the BoD and Milt are being offered a new lease, based on whatever requirements and benefits the new owner/management team wants to grant us.
If the Castle Partners want to influence the board to accept their terms, they would be smart to court the favor and support of the members. Instead, we have heard almost nothing of the offer, or of the plans that the Castle Partners have for the Magic Castle.
It is understandable that the membership is nervous and unsure of the direction we should take. It would help a lot if more information was provided, and I don't see how it could hurt the negotiations one way or the other.
Either the Castle Partners have a great new plan for running the Castle, that the members would all easily get behind, and would find so beneficial that they would be willing to give up their control and influence over food, beverage, and entertainment, or they don't.
I don't think that it is very helpful to just say "We are successful, wealthy, and business savvy. Trust us to take over the club and make it wonderful."
Whatever the BoD decides, it won't mean anything at all unless the membership wants to go along with it.
Therefore, it is extremely important to reach the minds and hearts of the membership--both for the board and the Castle Partners.
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#105913 - 02/04/04 06:07 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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First, I am not now a member of the Academy of Magical Arts. However, I was a member
for more than fifteen years starting about a year before the Magic Castle opened. The
night that the Castle opened we had 67 members -- scarcely enough to provide any kind of
income to the Glovers even if we drank ourselves silly every night. That was in January
1963. The dining room didn’t open until September. Obviously a percentage of the
receipts from dinner sales was not going to provide much income. I was there every night
that the club was open for the first three months. There were no scheduled shows. Jay
Ose performed when there was a likely looking group. Fred Shields and I and who ever
else happened to be in would perform several times each night for such as would sit still for
us.
Later Milt enclosed the nice circular porch creating the Blsckstone Room, enlarging the
bar, giving Irma a different venue. And we started having regular scheduled shows.
Then Milt dug a basement -- essentially using teaspoons and, lo, we had a Haunted Wine
Cellar. About 1967 We got a great chef -- Chef Howard -- and the reputation of the
Magic Castle was on a roll. Had some problems for a bit seating people in the dining
rooms but Eddie became maitre d’hôte and solved that. All of these innovations and
improvements were the work of Milt Larsen.
So, fellows, if you want to see the AMA and the Magic Castle prosper, look to Milt Larsen
and follow his lead.
If I were still in California and still a member I should rally behind his banner -- anytime,
anywhere.
tonga
02/04/04 1815
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#105914 - 02/04/04 06:17 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Richard Kaufman
The Chief Genii
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 12975
Loc: Washington DC
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I have replaced the original message which was here with the following note:
I had originally posted an interview with Diana Zimmerman here. However, upon announcing that I've decided not to post online the other three interviews I've conducted, but to print them in Genii instead, simple minds have jumped to foolish conclusions.
So, I have deleted the Zimmerman interview so that it will now appear only in the March issue of Genii.
My goal is doing good journalism AND selling magazines, and that must take precedence.
(This same note appears earlier in this thread where the Zimmerman interview appeared.)
All four interviews will appear in the March issue of Genii, which will go in the mail on February 12.
The half dozen posts which reacted to the original post which appeared in this spot have been deleted since they dealt directly with it. As my post has been deleted, it made no sense to leave them. Those who posted may wish to rephrase their posts based upon the information which currently exists in the thread.
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#105915 - 02/04/04 09:03 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Richard - because something disagrees with what you have done, you have deleted it. That is sad. You can delete this also, if you so wish. I do not feel anyone here has a "simple mind" or is attempting "foolish conclusions". I strongly disagree with your only publishing one of the interviews that only states one side of the coin before your magazine goes to publication. You then stated you have the other interviews. And, then, you stated that you were going to publish them on the forums and then decided to wait for your magazine to be published. This reflects a bias in your willingness to share, via electronic forums, the same forums in which you published the views of the CPLLC...in an attempt to show that their efforts were "honorable and of good intention" to the worried members of the AMA as well as magicians who wanted some idea of what was happening. During the time period of which that publication will be released, meetings will transpire betwixt the parties...and issues could be moot by the time your publication goes to the readers.
My point was, and is, for honest dissemenation of the facts, all views should be brought forward here in these forums...if only for the fact that you had brought forward the first interview in what became a set. All sides need to be read and heard equally. Perhaps you feel your publication date will do this. I feel it is buying more time for the CPLLC and their view - which still remains accessible in this forum. However, you have deleted all of those posts in question...so, in effect, that is an attempt to apparently do the right thing.
The other response was a matter of trying to illustrate that the members who are most outspoken here and long written are trying to ensure that all members of the AMA and otherwise are aware of how great an impact this situation is going to have on our community...and that it is time to be aware of this wake up call.
You may delete this, you may keep it. I guess that is part of the power of owning this forum. I personally prefer a place where people are free to disagree without wondering whether or not someone will take away their words. There should be no fear over what is said to anyone at any point here...whether it agrees with you or not.
Your action appeared to be slanted towards the CPLLC. That was my issue. It really doesn't matter, in the long run.
As I have said, and continue to state, what matters is the Academy of Magical Arts. And, we need to stay strong and united behind Milt and our current designated leadership on this issue.
The CPLLC has shown several questionable actions and methods of how they are approaching their desire to "improve the operations of the AMA clubhouse by taking over the business end of things."
This is a major issue in our world of magic. In truth, we all stand to lose. And, due to the pain and situations that have escalated to this point, no matter the outcome, we have already lost too much amongst ourselves in these personal issues.
To you, Mr. Kaufman, I extend a personal apology. It has not been my effect to offend you in any way or manner. To the members of the magical community at large, my apologies, also. If there have been further tears in the rift developing due to my asking for what seemed to me to be fair presentation of materials for all to read and understand, in whatever situation...then, for those tears...I apologize.
Respectfully -
Kym Diamond
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#105917 - 02/05/04 11:58 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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HalS:
The logic you are using is applicable if the product sold is constant. If the Castle is selling less dinners/drinks the rent can be decreasing even if prices are rising.
The biggest indicator of the number of dinners declining has to be Saturday nights.
One wonders why the Castle started (quietly)letting guests dine on Saturday nights a few years ago. For years this was sacred, reserved for members only. And if things have improved so much, why are guests still allowed to use guest passes on Saturday nights?
Also, there are many indicators that people generally do not drink as much during a night on the town as they did 20 or even 10 years ago.
Unless you have additional information, none of us actually know if the rent kept pace with inflation, outpaced it, or dropped.
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#105919 - 02/05/04 12:55 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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HalS, I'm not sure you understood my point regarding value of a property. Although I'd disagree with your point that there is no relationship to the value and the rent (compare rent for a house in Brentwood and Watts, for example), a much simpler way of looking at my point is to look at "comps" for commercial rental property in the area. I think you will find that the price/sq ft of such property in the area INDEED would exceed the entire gross of the Castle. (not actually knowing either, but taking an educated guess).
Someone wrote about negotiating strategies. The common thinking about this is the "head-butting" approach often taken by amateurs. The modern approach to negotiations is quite different, and has the advantage of not creating ill-will amongst the participants. Do you really want to create ill-will, if we move out? For example, people state that we can take things out down to the 2x4's, and that may be true. BUT, if the Glovers file suit to prevent that from happening, it will be heard in court in about 2 years......during which time, we will NOT likely have the contents. How long do you think the Castle can be kept alive, not being open? I'd suspect the associate members will blow away in the wind. Maybe I'm wrong, but it is a serious gamble. If we must part ways with the Glovers, it best be done on gracious terms. Who knows, maybe things won't work out for either side, and we'll want to get back together.....
An excellent book on the newer negotiating process is "Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" available at Amazon (you might look at the reviews).
There is a LOT that we do not know. We don't know if the Glovers approached a group of people, stating that they had decided to go another way, with another management group, and would they like to have input into the new group, or should they just use a commercial management group with no ties to the Castle at all. We don't know.
This discussion of CP putting together a campaign to convince AMA members of why we should embrace their concept....no.
The AMA and Milt are in negotiations with CP. They represent us. They will hammer out a deal, or they won't. They will come to us with a recommendation, and undoubtedly will be hearty debate. If Milt comes to us with a deal that he recommends, who in the AMA, based upon CP info, is going to go against his recommendation. I certainly won't. We've heard all kinds of spectulation about what they are going to do. I've heard no recommendation from our Board, or from Milt.
I think that we all have made known our position that we will stand behind our leaders, in their best efforts for our institution. I think we have to trust them to do their best.
I have no doubt, don't you, that the Castle, operating in the same location, run a bit better and more efficiently, will endure for a long time.
Moving, especially under duress, will inject a great uncertainty into the equation. The fact that moving was NEVER considered until CP entered the equation, tells me that Milt and the Board didn't consider moving a reasonable consideration, either. I think that is why they are giving their energy to negotiating, and that is totally to their credit.
The Castle, where it is, is an institution. Milt and the Board, are it's stewards. CP, and the Glovers seem to be taking the approach that they understand that it is an institution, also. I support everyone's honest attempt to protect that institution.
Dialing down the rhetoric here, and on the Castle forums, would probably be in the best interests of everyone, and the process.
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#105920 - 02/05/04 02:18 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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acetwo said:
The fact that moving was NEVER considered until CP entered the equation, tells me that Milt and the Board didn't consider moving a reasonable consideration, either. I think that is why they are giving their energy to negotiating, and that is totally to their credit.
I think it is a good time for a move, and personally, I hope we do move into newer and bigger quarters this year.
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#105922 - 02/05/04 07:54 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Acetwo,
Regarding commercial rents, and their relation to the value of the property, there are standard ways of assigning rental values to properties based on the type of lease (does the tennant take care of maintenence, etc. or not, and so on), and typical rents in the area for similar classes of property. Note that these rents have nothing to do with the value of a property in terms of what it can be sold for, or what it could rent for if it were "improved". The Magic Castle is fairly unique, so getting comparables for rents in its current incarnation might be difficult. But I assume the Glovers, being experienced real estate owners and developers, do know all the figures for rents, value, etc. This comment is just to point out that a property's value is what it could be sold for, and that does not necessarily have any relationship to what it can rent for. For example, if you had a single family, 700 square foot house on a 1/2 acre lot on the right location in Park Avenue, in NY City, while you might get a pretty good rent for such a small house, it would never come close to reflecting the high multimillion dollar sale value of the property. Of course the buyer would demolish the house and build something else to get more of a return, most likely. However, there are many reasons why someone might not want to fully develop a property, other than charity to the Magic Castle.
In any event, the Glovers know all these values, are experienced, and able to make their own decisions as to what use they want to make of the property right now. I had an old uncle, who died very rich, who started off buying property, tearing down the buildings and turning them into parking lots, which were easy to run, then waiting twenty years until some big company needed the land for a hotel or office complex. Whatever he got from the parking lots wasn't meant to extract the full value of the property at the time - he wanted to wait a long time, and not have to bother much with the property in the meantime. The Glovers are experienced, and whatever their reasons for not fully developing the Magic Castle site, I don't think anybody is taking advantage of them. Its been great that they have supported the Magic Castle all these years, but if they choose to develop the site more, no one would begrudge them doing this with their own property. And if they can find a way for the Magic Castle to stay and prosper, then I think everyone would feel they have done something they certainly didn't have to do, but which is continuing a tradition of contributing to the magic community, and I would feel they deserve a lot of praise for that.
Regarding your comments about "modern negotiation", I have read this book and many others on negotiation. You make a very good point - negotiations end best when they are "win-win" and both sides seek to be honest, fair, and look on it as setting the basis for an on-going business relationship. I wasn't advocating a hard-ball negotiation technique. Merely pointing out that it is bad tactics to give all the cards to the other side by telling them you have no other alternatives to making a deal. The other side has few reasons to compromise in that case - why should they, if you can't walk away?
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#105926 - 02/06/04 08:22 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Chris Aguilar
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 824
Loc: Sacramento
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Jeff,
I asked nearly the same exact question earlier in this thread (assuming that it wasn't one of the messages deleted by RK). The answer given (by the gentlemen who has previously worked on the marketing committee) was that those sort of statistics were either never properly kept, or difficult to obtain from the BOD. When the Giorgio case was going on, there was a website with a lot of transcripts with sworn testimony involving the finances/practices of the BOD and the Castle in general. Irrespective of the merits of the Giorgio case, I found the testimony to be very interesting and a bit troubling. The Giorgio website isn't widely available anymore, but the technically inclined can still access the information if they wish.
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#105927 - 02/06/04 10:03 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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As a member and weekly visitor to the Castle I have seen the management by the BOD go from bad to terrible in the last few years. For people who are not members and/or do not frequent the Castle, it must be restated that it is the terrible financial management and lack of respect displayed to the performing magicians by the BOD that started and continues the Castle's decline. Most of the regular magicians who frequent the Castle fear that if they speak out against the board they will be punished either by not being selected to perform at the Castle and/or not receiving referral jobs when people call the Castle to request magicians for outside jobs. Do we want to keep losing valuable performers like John Carney?
We need to elect a new, responsible, moral BOD. We need to monitor the elections to the board to make sure they are not rigged. (How could Max Maven not have been voted in? EVERYONE voted for him). It doesn't matter if the Castle stays or moves, if the BOD is not changed the problems will continue.
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#105928 - 02/06/04 10:56 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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smmagic:
That is totally ridiculous. Do you really talk to "most" of the regular magician members? Do you really know who "everyone" of our 5000 members voted for?
What decline? What horrible financial management are you talking about?
We just had the most successful year in our 40 year history!
I often have taken issue with members of the board over various things, and Ron Wilson and I have argued about the hiring and management of the WC Fields Bar since its inception. Ron knows that I have always felt that the dual positions of talent booker and Board member was a bad idea, and that he should quit one or the other, and Billy McComb is probably tired of listening to all my suggestions. Bruce Cervon and I have disagreed on some things as well, and I have to admit, he can put out a very convincing argument--especially when he gets hot under the collar.
I have found that you can get in very heated and acrimonious discussions with Bruce, or Ron, or any of the board, and they never take it personally. They are all big boys, and capable of handling a few shots at themselves. I have known most of the Board members for many years. They are decent men who care about the Castle, and are not the despots and thin-skinned incompetents that I keep hearing about here.
And these differences and disagreements have nothing to do with the bookings at the Castle.
The members of the BoD are not the petty, venal tyrants that I keep hearing about. There may be many things that can be improved--that would be true of any organization--but I get tired of hearing all these overblown criticisms of the board, accusing them of everything but the Kennedy assasination.
If you have a specific complaint about something the board has done, then state it. But please don't join in this endless and repetitive sniping that is so generalized it means nothing.
These vacuous lies--when repeated over and over by disgruntled people with some axe to grind--begin to be accepted as the truth. Put some specifics down that can be discussed instead of these whiney, generalized attacks on the board's character and motivations.
I have been a member of the Castle since 1975, and I work there about four weeks a year--usually one week in each room--and have for many years.
I find that I get frustrated when I can't get guests in to my show because of the crowding, and I have had a few other complaints, but for the most part, I have always been treated extremely well by the staff and managers, and have never been shown less than respect and consideration.
I have noticed that a number of the writers who come on this thread supporting the Castle Partner's position or who are attacking the current board are new to this forum, and are also keeping their names hidden.
It seems to me that if you want to call people vindictive, dishonest or immoral, you should at least have the courage to do it to their faces, and not under the cover of some pseudonym.
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#105930 - 02/06/04 11:44 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Whit,
I am curious as to where you are getting your information? To the best of my knowledge, the AMA's 2003 financial statement has not been released, so how can you state that we just finished our best year ever? Show us the financial statement.
The Marketing Committee was denied funds for numerous projects in 2003 and told the AMA couldn't afford it, including Christmas toys for kids in a local hospital (which the AMA had funded in prior years).
The fact is that until the financials are presented at the Annual meeting, you and I don't have the facts.
Without the 2003 financial statement, your rhetoric about "We just had the most successful year in our 40 year history!" is at this time, speculative at best.
Michael Flint
AMA M11061
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#105931 - 02/06/04 11:53 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Jon Racherbaumer
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 713
Loc: New Orleans
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ARE WE ALL “OUT THERE” OR MERELY OUT OF IT?
I think it was Oscar Wilde who quipped that the “plain and simple truth” is seldom “plain” and never “simple.” Nevertheless, the heartfelt, emotionally-tinged “babble” that has been generated by this lively thread is revelatory—not about what is actually happening, but what insiders and outsiders FEEL about the possibilities, the hearsay, the few facts, the countless factoids, and the principal players in the events that are now unfolding.
Being a conspiracy buff ever since JFK was assassinated and Watergate took place, I realize that the Truth is “out there” and usually REMAINS “out there.” Despite all the stuff that has been published and revealed about the Kennedy Assassinations, there are mixed interpretations.
When the Castle Dust-up finally plays out, the facts will be swapped at the Swamp Meets and everyone will be happy with their “versions.” If the Magic Castle building remains, along with its name, and magicians can gather, and performers can perform, everything will are now babbling about will be mercifully moot.
I'm now babbling myself…after I vowed to shut up and shuffle the cards. Forgive me.
Oh, well…I still have 60 more pages (out of 491) to pour over in the new Wesley James book.
Then I’ll have a lot to babble about…although it will likely be in the sanctum of my rest-rarely Website…
Onward, brothers and sisters…
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#105932 - 02/06/04 12:10 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Michael:
My figures came from James Williams "official" post on the Magic Castle Forum/Announcements:
"We have exceeded our last year’s gross revenues for the club and restaurant and bar every month since August and we have kept our expenses down. Therefore, while our statement reflects a loss, as of November 30, of $43,000 it compares to a loss of $167,000 at the same time last year. Our biggest month every year is December and for the past several years we have made net profits of between 100 and $200,000 for December. It is therefore safe to assume that we will do the same this year. By just following our trend for this year I can safely project a net profit as of the end of the year of somewhere between 100 and $150,000. (By the way, this December was really great.)
We have all worked very hard this year to accomplish the results I’ve just mentioned and I am very proud to say that I believe we can continue in this profit mode well into the future."
Jon:
I'm a bit of a Kennedy assassination buff myself, but still, I am surprised. I take it you do think the BoD was involved? 
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#105933 - 02/06/04 12:56 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anent possible involvement by the BOD in the JFK assassination: When Robeet Kennedy was assassinated (you will recall that was a bad year assassination-wise) Milt Larsen remarked to me that assassinations were bad for business. At the time he said that he and I were the only persons other than the bartender in the club. And we could both be considered staff.
So, as you can see, it would not have been in the best interest of the BOD to be involved in such. Character-assassination is, of course, a different matter and up to the individual.
tonga
2/6/4 1302
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#105934 - 02/06/04 01:08 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Whit,
I have read and reread the information in your post from JW. Please tell us how this illustrates your statement "We just had the most successful year in our 40 year history!"
And while I would never question the intentions of JW, wouldn't it be prudent to wait until the annual financial statement is released?
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#105935 - 02/06/04 01:09 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Brad Henderson
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 434
Loc: austin, tx
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As someone who loves the Castle and the times I have performed there, I have followed this thread with interest. In fact, I pressed early on for information to be shared here.
However, I think in the interest of all concerened a little analysis and synthesis should be in order:
At the first of January a group called the Castle Partner's entered into negotiations with the Glover family in regard to the lease of the Magic Castle. As there were not public announcements made, many people felt this was underhanded and unfair. Others feel that this is simply a cautious way of performing business and no underhandedness was intended.
The person's that make up CP have largely been enumerated (I believe) and many of their positions will be discussed in an upcoming Genii article.
Many people are worried about the fate of the Castle and feel the CP intends to turn the Castle into something that does not have their member's best interest at heart. Members of the CP have said that their intention is for the best of the Magic Castle and have stated specifically that there are no plans to turn the Castle into a disco or similar space.
Many people feel that the best course of action is to vacate the premises, transfer the furnishings, and find a newer location. They feel that not only would this create an easier landlord/tenet environment but would solve many of the physical challenges faced by the Castle.
Others argue that the same management problems will follow the move and that no improvement other than having a larger space will result. Some general accusations of misappropriations and bad behavior have been levied, though no specific charges have been made. These accusations have been challenged.
Many people have also chosen to debate the role of profit making in a private club enivronment.
Finally, the role and efficacy of the Castle board has been called into question. Many have shared their experiences with dealing with the board, both positive and negative.
That, as I see it, sums up pretty much everything that has been said over the past 6 pages. I find a lot of passionate speech but most of it - respectfully- merely spins us around in circles.
I post this not to trivialize the situation. I think it is of critical importance to all magicians and feel we should be as informed as possible. However, I think we need to step back and look at what the essence of the issue is, what we know and what we don't, and insure that further discourse adds meaningfully to the discussion instead of merely being another layer of noise.
Wishing everyone involved the best outcome,
Brad
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#105936 - 02/06/04 01:37 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Richard Kaufman
The Chief Genii
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 12975
Loc: Washington DC
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I've struggled over the past few days about whether to hold these four interviews until people could read them in Genii, or post them now. I had previously decided to hold them, which is a better business move for me since it will increase the circulation of the March issue of Genii. However, while that's in my own interest, it's not in the general interest of the members of the AMA, since they deserve to be able to read all four interviews prior to the general meeting. So, below you will find my interviews with Diana Zimmerman, Dale Hindman, Milt Larsen, and Tom Glover. They are printed in the order they were recorded (and the order is random, based entirely upon when I was able to reach the various participants while we were on deadline). All the participants have had the opportunity to read the transcriptions and refine their points of view so the statements reflect exactly what they want to say.
Genii Speaks
While attending the World Magic Seminar in Las Vegas in the middle of January, I heard a rumor that the Glover family, who own the old Lane Mansion in which The Magic Castle and the Academy of Magical Arts (AMA) reside, had decided not to give Milt Larsen a new lease and The Castle would be closing. Steve Bryant heard a rumor that Diana Zimmerman was involved in a “hostile takeover” of The Magic Castle. Several days later I received an e-mail from Steve that our rumors were merging. Curious, I logged onto The Genii Forum and discovered that a lengthy thread had been started regarding a developing situation, namely that a group named Castle Partners, LLC (the acronym stands for “Limited Liability Company”) had been negotiating with the Glover family regarding the future of The Magic Castle. Over the course of the next week, I conducted telephone interviews with Milt Larsen, Dale Hindman, Diana Zimmerman, and Tom Glover. At that time we added these interviews to this issue (Wednesday February 4), the situation was still in flux. Please log onto The Genii Forum (www.geniimagazine.com/forum) for any updated news. In the meantime, since The Magic Castle is the most venerated performance venue for magic in the United States, and in fact has been the center of the magic community for many years (and was a big part of Genii when both business were owned by the Larsen family), it seemed vital to me that both sides have a chance to air their views.
Genii talked with Diana Zimmerman, a member of Castle Partners, on Tuesday, January 27, 2003.
Genii: Can you tell me exactly whom you represent?
Zimmerman: Castle Partners, LLC consists of seven people: Tom Glover, Andy Ulloa [Glover’s stepson], Peter Reveen, Michael Flint, Bob Rossi, Bill Rose (the only member who doesn’t have a background in magic, but is a magic enthusiast and an attorney by trade), and myself.
Genii: Is Lance Burton involved in any way?
Zimmerman: No. Lance is absolutely not involved in any way, whatsoever.
Genii: When did Castle Partners form?
Zimmerman: Castle Partners was officially formed on January 2, 2004, but have been involved in negotiations with the Glovers since the summer of 2003. Over the past two and a half years I had heard rumors concerning the problems that the Glover family was having coming to terms on a new lease with Milt Larsen. So, Peter, Bob, Michael, and I—through a third party—approached the Glovers and broached the idea of buying the Lane Mansion so that the AMA could have a permanent home and not worry about leasing it. We quickly learned that the rumors regarding the Glover family’s desire to oust the AMA from The Magic Castle were simply not true. The Glover family wants very much to maintain The Magic Castle, revitalize it, and restore it to the luster it had years ago. The truth be known, their true goals were very much what Peter, Michael, Bob, Bill, and I had in mind. Despite the rumors, they definitely do not want to turn it into a different club, like a disco, or a magic club that magicians can’t afford or increase the rent.
Genii: But the story didn’t end there.
Zimmerman: When it appeared that negotiations between the Glovers and Milt Larsen were not progressing, talks resumed between the Glovers and Castle Partners. For the Glovers, it really is not an issue of money. The terms of rent that Milt has paid the Glovers has always been a percentage of the Food and Beverage. This has not changed over the years, except to insert a minimum guarantee due to falling revenues. It is ridiculous to hear people talk of rent increases. The Glovers could easily create another business in the location of The Magic Castle that would probably generate greater revenue. They simply want The Magic Castle to be a place of which they can be very proud. Castle Partners realizes that business people needed to be included in the managing of it, and not just any business people, but individuals who love The Castle and what it stands for.
Genii: Why is the term “hostile takeover” being used?
Zimmerman: We are not trying to take over the AMA. The Glovers, who own the land and the building, have decided that Castle Partners will become the leaseholder of the premises rather than Milt himself. Castle Partners will then make an agreement with the AMA to continue their club at The Magic Castle. Castle Partners is not saying, “Here’s the deal, take it or leave it.” We have asked to work with Milt and the AMA so everyone can be happy. Castle Partners is not planning to fire the staff or do anything but improve the club, and we would like Milt Larsen to continue to be part of The Magic Castle, building and innovating as he has always done. These are issues of morality and tradition, and they are very important to Castle Partners.
Genii: What about the Academy of Magical Arts? How would that change?
Zimmerman: While certain items are still in negotiation, the AMA would no longer be responsible for food and beverage service, but would still be responsible for the library, awards, lectures, education, (such as Mark Wilson’s excellent magic courses) and be very much involved in the entertainment at The Magic Castle. Castle Partners has no intention of running the AMA, and the AMA would still be responsible for setting its own membership rules. The members elect the AMA Board, and that would not change. Castle Partners will be there to maintain an infrastructure that will be beneficial to everyone, including the AMA, its members, Milt, and the landlords—the Glover family. The AMA is a wonderful magic organization, and Dale Hindman has done a fine job as President of the Board. Castle Partners would have no authority to change the AMA, the board of the AMA, or anything about the AMA.
Genii: It’s the end of January as we speak. How long will negotiations continue?
Zimmerman: The Glovers have said that they will continue negotiations as long as they feel that the talks are being held in good faith. Meanwhile, The Magic Castle will continue operating just as it has for the last 40 years. There have been two meetings so far involving all seven members of Castle Partners with Milt Larsen, Arlene Larsen [vice president of Milt’s company], Dale Hindman [President of the AMA], and Lew Horwitz [Treasurer of the AMA].
Genii: If you could say one thing to people who might be confused about the goal of Castle Partners what would that be?
Zimmerman: We think The Magic Castle is a truly magical place and that the Academy of Magical Arts is a wonderful organization. We want to keep Milt Larsen and the AMA at The Magic Castle for at least another 40 years and make it better and stronger than ever. At the club’s peak, it had over 7000 members. It now has fewer than 4000 members. We want the club to flourish once again and restore it to the world’s premier home for magicians. We want the performers to be treated with a sense of pride and dignity. We want to improve the quality of food and beverage service while still making it affordable. We also want Irene Larsen to be restored to her rightful place—something she lost when her husband Bill Larsen, Jr. died. We want to build a strong foundation that—long after all of us are gone—will ensure future generations can enjoy this amazing club. By working together we can do all this and so much more. Everyone will win—especially the members. Many other facts and insights will come to the surface over the coming weeks. However, due to ongoing negotiations we cannot talk about them at this time.
Genii talked with Dale Hindman, President of the Academy of Magical Arts (AMA) on Monday February 2, 2004.
Hindman: There were a couple of points in Diana Zimmerman’s interview that were a little disconcerting. I don’t recall The Castle ever having 7,000 members. We have about 3700 to 3800 paying members, and about 1100 life members. I don’t know where she got her figures from.
Genii: Any other comments?
Hindman: Regarding the financial aspects of the Academy, our December numbers are some of the best we’ve ever had.
Genii: I thought the AMA was a non-profit organization?
Hindman: No, it’s a not-for-profit mutual benefit corporation. Not a 501C3. And income in 2003 was good enough that we may actually have to pay taxes.
Genii: So the tax status has never changed that you know of.
Hindman: That’s correct. We did have a few hard years during the past few years, as did many companies after 9/11, but we used our reserve wisely and are now in good shape. To imply that we’re on the verge of going bankrupt is incorrect.
Genii: Were you aware that the offer of a lease to Castle Partners rather than Milt Larsen was coming?
Hindman: No, I was surprised. Both Milt and I received a letter on January 6 informing us of a new entity. We had our first meeting with them shortly after that.
Genii: Do you know why the Glovers have decided to give the lease to someone else.
Hindman: I don’t know all the reasons, but they did indicate that they were concerned with having a lease with a single entity (i.e., Milt) for a long period.
Genii: In Diana’s interview she stated she would leave AMA essentially untouched, aside from removing food and beverage from its list of duties.
Hindman: Well, her comments leave certain things unsaid. Once you remove food and beverage, is it still a club for magicians? Who would be responsible for booking? The AMA or Castle Partners? It seems very strange that the landlord would want to tell us how to run the business of the people to whom he is leasing the property.
Genii: Have you had a third meeting?
Hindman: Not yet. We’re still formulating our questions for them about a number of issues. We did ask them about certain things that they were not able to answer yet. Our negotiations are still ongoing. We have questions that their general statements have raised and we need to present a list to them about those concerns.
Genii: Who decides if the AMA is going to move to a new location?
Hindman: There are discussions with our counsel about that process. Some people think the members should vote, while others think the board of directors should decide. We’re not at a point where that decision would be made, yet.
Genii: Do you think there’s room for two magic clubs like this in Los Angeles?
Hindman: I don’t know what the Glovers and Castle Partners plan if Milt and the AMA vacate the building. What we have determined in the last few weeks is that we have a lot of support. There seem to be people who will step up to the plate financially, but we are in the early stages of any discussion.
Genii: Would you say that you have so little direct information from the Glovers and Castle Partners that you can’t make an informed decision yet?
Hindman: Yes, as of today.
Genii: Do you have another meeting scheduled with them?
Hindman: The AMA has a board meeting on Thursday February 5 to go over more information. Then Lew Horwitz and I have an appointment with to go over additional material. There are really two parties dealing with Castle Partners and the Glovers: the AMA and Milt Larsen.
Genii: Is it possible that the AMA will make one decision and Milt Larsen will make a different decision?
Hindman: Yes, it’s possible. The AMA might agree to Castle Partner’s terms and Milt might not. Magic is kind of a dysfunctional family, but when it’s attacked by the outside there’s a real defense mechanism. People seem to perceive Castle Partners as outsiders attacking us.
Genii: Did Castle Partners ever approach you about joining them?
Hindman: No.
Genii: One of the sticking points would seem to be, and it’s less about food and beverage, than it is about booking the entertainment.
Hindman: You’ve got long term employees over the years, and if Castle Partners and the Glovers want to improve those things, then someone has to assume control and that may have an impact on staffing. Regarding entertainment, while they may think they can do it, Milt and I both have concerns about another entity taking over the day to day operations of those parts of The Castle. Again, we don’t have enough specifics yet to fully determine what areas would be impacted the most, and many of these issues are open for discussion.
Genii: What do you think about people’s comments regarding what seems to be capacity issues at the current building?
Hindman: There are capacity issues. The Palace seats 129 people per show. We set aside four seats for performers’ guests each show. That leaves 125 seats. Not everyone can get in on every night. Especially Fridays and Saturday.
Genii: What about the issue of giving Palace show tickets to every dinner patron, which creates a situation where the members who haven’t eaten that night can’t get in to see the show?
Hindman: That’s true, and we’ve been giving tickets to the Palace with dinner for at least 10 years. The issue is, if we reduce the numbers of dinners each night in order to allow more seats for the members, that reduces the revenue to the landlords because they get a percentage of the food and beverage.
Genii: The Glovers claim that their current move toward issuing a new lease is not about money.
Hindman: I would doubt that any landlord would like to get less money than they receive now. If you pay $50 for dinner, you want to be able to see at least one show. The idea is, if you spend that much money, you should be able to see at least three magicians. After that you’re on your own in terms of getting into the Parlor or Close-Up Gallery. I’ve said to members that the cost of the meals is, we understand, a bit high, however they are necessary to subsidize The Magic Castle. Their dues just won’t cover the entire thing. We’re paying less than $1 a square foot to the landlord right now, which is low for downtown Hollywood. I think they’re concerned that their money (ie, their rent) will be there for the long term,and that changes are necessary in order to ensure that.
Genii: But as of now, everything remains open and it’s business as usual.
Hindman: Yes, of course. I don’t see anything changing in the immediate future.
Genii: Is the Awards Banquet going to go on as scheduled?
Hindman: Yes, I’m in the process of signing all the contracts now. It should be a great show. No matter which way this goes, the AMA and The Magic Castle will never be the same. It may be better overall whether the AMA and Milt go to a new location or stay where we are, but it won’t be the same.
Genii Talked with Milt Larsen the evening of Monday February 2, 2003
Genii: You’ve negotiated with the Glover family for about two and a half years for a new lease on The Magic Castle?
Milt: That’s pretty close. The last lease had two one-year extensions and expired on December 31, 2003.
Genii: Can you summarize why you’ve been unable to reach an agreement for a new lease?
Milt: The old situation is that I had the master lease with the Glovers, and I sublease it to the AMA. In that lease, I took care of the creative part of The Castle and the AMA ran the business side of it. At one point, the Glovers were reticent to enter into a long-term lease with me because I’m at the age of semi-retirement—72. So, signing a 20 year lease from their business point of view is not a good idea. I offered to step aside and let the Glovers lease directly to the AMA. They had concerns about that, particularly dealing with the board of directors (which the Glovers felt were not business people, but magicians, which is true). From my standpoint, I question that a little bit because Lew Horwitz is one of the most respected financial film bankers in town. Dale Hindman also has a banking background. The Glovers felt it should be more business oriented. Essentially, that’s the main problem because they had concerns about the AMA running the bar and restaurant business. Andy, Tom’s stepson, has been in charge of the food and beverage at the Yamashiro restaurant at the top of the hill [above The Magic Castle] and felt he could do a good job of that at The Castle. My position is that they should be landlords and that we should be able to run our business as we see fit in their building.
Genii: Castle Partners is made up of seven people, two of which are Tom Glover, Jr., and his stepson Andy Ulloa.
Milt: What it means is that the Glovers are leasing The Magic Castle back to themselves and their partners. This last December we did a $400,000 food and beverage gross which isn’t too shabby for a little restaurant that deals with magicians. They want to have control of the food and beverage and entertainment of The Castle. The AMA would have absolutely no control with what they do with the club and I find that to be totally unacceptable.
Genii: What’s the major obstacle at the moment?
Milt: One of the biggest problems is that Castle Partners have not given us a detailed proposal for what they want to do, so we’re not quite sure what we want to do. The thing I can’t see is why, at this point, they feel the AMA can’t run the club. They’ve run it very well against all sorts of odds and it’s doing better than it ever has. But the AMA is a club, it’s not a commercial bar and restaurant/nightclub. The whole club is based on the love of magic, and the minute you start turning it into a commercial place you have Wizards and Magic Island (both of which went out of business), and The Magic Castle has been successful because of the love of the magicians and the love that Bill, Irene and I put into it.
Genii: There has been some talk of moving.
Milt: There are only going to be two options. One is for the AMA to stay in the building, which would be operated by Castle Partners (and conceivably not be called The Magic Castle). The other option is to move The Magic Castle and the AMA to a new location, which at this point might make a lot of sense. One of the problems we have with The Castle is that we’ve reached our capacity. In a sense we’ve outgrown The Castle. We could build onto the Palace and add new facilities … we could build a new Palace on top of the existing building (which used to be a parking garage). It was built so it could be expanded. There’s also room behind to build more kitchen facilities, and this is one of the things Castle Partners apparently wants to do. My only question is if they (the Glovers) wanted that kind of a deal then why didn’t they come to me?
Genii: Can you envision the AMA staying at The Castle with Castle Partners in charge and you go elsewhere or retire?
Milt: Retirement is not an option for me. As far as the AMA staying without me, that would be up to the members. Then it would be a case of members voting to stay with Castle partners or go with me.
Genii: I think going elsewhere would be a gargantuan undertaking.
Milt: It depends upon where the elsewhere is. I have two places in mind. One of them would be gargantuan and fantastic, and the other would be much more like the original Castle where it would be developed over time. I’ve actually talked with four different places in Hollywood where The Castle might happen.
Genii: It doesn’t seem to me that Los Angeles could support two similar magic clubs. And I’m sure you’re well aware that it’s possible that if you moved The Magic Castle to a new location, that both places could suffer and go out of business in a few years.
Milt: I think you’re absolutely right, but the question is who has the most marbles in the game. I think if we take the name and the members and we have a facility that’s much better than The Castle, there’s not much question there. I really think the strength in this thing is with the name “The Magic Castle” and the membership of the AMA. If the AMA stays with Castle Partners, then it would be very difficult for me to start a new club and I might not even do it. They might want to keep The Castle that I have, which is the name and the fixtures, and if they want to make me the right offer, well that might happen, too. They haven’t made such an offer yet. But, it would never be The Castle that you know today. So much of our work is done by volunteers because they love The Magic Castle, and all that will change.
Genii: Is it true that Castle Partners have offered you a salary and equity so that you could remain involved in The Castle?
Milt: At this point, we’re waiting for some kind of proposal like that. At one point the Glovers offered me part of the partnership. Everything that the Glovers have said over the past couple of years is that they love The Castle and want it to stay forever, but when you get to the bottom of it they want to control the club. It’s not a matter of money, but of control. In my opinion, if the bar and restaurant management is in total control of Castle Partners, then the club is going to suffer.
Genii: Would you go to court to prevent Castle Partners from using what you consider to be your trademark, “The Magic Castle?”
Milt: First of all, nobody wants for any of this to end up in Court. That would be the last thing any of us would want to see happen. But, there wouldn’t be much for the court to decide, because it’s registered for stage shows, entertainment, restaurant business, apparel—there would be no way for anyone to open a “Magic Castle” that does what we do. There’s also something called “unfair competition” and we were there first. The brand, the name, is something that goes beyond the building. I gave the Glover’s the right to use the name “The Magic Castle” for the hotel next door only on the assumption it would be in connection with The Magic Castle. I think any legal decisions are going to be pretty clear in this. The Glovers have made their move in that they don’t care to lease the building either to me or the AMA directly, and I’m saying that they have to come up with a detailed proposal-which they haven’t done yet. If we don’t like the proposal, then we can move someplace else. One of the things that Diana has said is that I will remain in The Castle, but that’s not going to happen. I’ve got a lot of piss and vinegar left in me. I like challenges, and this whole new thing is going to be one of the greatest challenges of my life and since I love challenges, what’s wrong with that? Beats the hell out of sitting on the beach and throwing rocks at the fish.
Genii: So it really depends upon the proposal they present to you.
Milt: The last thing I want to do is close the door. I’d love to have the Glovers change their mind about the way this is heading.
Genii: Do you have a date for the new meeting with Castle Partners.
Milt: I think they’re trying to set up a date between now and the General Meeting. Tom Glover will tell you that they’re doing this to save the Club and frankly we don’t need saving.
Genii talked with Tom Glover (the owner of the building which houses The Magic Castle) on Monday February 2 at 11 pm
Genii: The first question would be, why you were unable to reach a new lease agreement with Milt Larsen after two and a half years of negotiation.
Glover: We started talking years ago, and there were several issues important to the landlord, which is actually an LLC called Magic Castle Park (MCP) consisting of members of my family. These issues needed to be addressed before MCP would enter into a longer term lease.
First, Magic Castle Park must form a lease with an entity that will provide longevity beyond any individual. Until it expired in December 2000, the lease had been with Milt Larsen. It was of concern to MCP that there would be a surviving entity to ensure that the Magic Castle operation was properly run beyond Milt lifetime - and mine, too!
The second issue was that the Magic Castle operation had become rather stagnant. Whenever we raised the issue of making changes to revitalize it, it seemed to be stymied by the Board of the AMA, which controlled the operation of the Magic Castle. Some of the Board members had been there for many, many years and didn’t seem to understand that it needs to be revitalized. Membership was declining, activity was declining, and Magic Castle Park felt that it was important to ensure the revitalization of the Magic Castle business operations by taking control out of the hands of the magicians. The Board, by its nature, is composed of magicians, and while the AMA has many members who are not magicians, the bylaws of the AMA require that only magicians can vote and only magicians can be on the Board. Their primary interest is magic, and we support that 100%. However, the running of a food and beverage operation needs the attention of professionals who specialize in that area. We approached Milt with offers to help in any way we could - even to partner with him. Milt was understanding, but felt The Castle was doing just fine as it was.
Genii: How would you respond to Milt’s statements that The Castle doesn’t need revitalizing, which he backs up with the statement that his December 2003 payment to you, your share of food and beverage, was the largest it’s ever been.
Glover: By Milt’s own admission, the reason there has been an improvement in the last three months is because we essentially pressured them to make changes. The fact that things are better since August 2003 is proof of the wisdom of change.
Genii: What kind of changes?
Glover: A number of changes in food and service were very positive. However, it didn’t go nearly far enough. There are still many problems with the food and beverage operation, particularly with the quality of the food and the service.
Genii: Milt said that they currently have 5,000 members, and that’s the highest membership has ever been. They would seem to dispute the notion that membership has declined.
Glover: As I recall, and I’m going by a report last year by AMA treasurer, Lew Horwitz, there were about 3500 members.
Genii: That’s 3,500 paying members. The balance are apparently life members.
Glover: Numbers aren’t the whole story. More importantly, the most common report from people who go to The Castle is that it was an “interesting experience” but they wouldn’t go back because the food was mediocre, the service was fair, and that it’s an aging institution. Money is not and has never been our primary concern. The rent there has remained on the same percentage basis since my father shook hands with Milt 40 years ago. We are far more interested in the survival and well-being of the wonderful institution The Magic Castle is - its survival long into the future.
Genii: Have you read the depositions taken by Tony Giorgio during his trial of the members of the Board of the AMA?
Glover: No, I’ve heard his name and that he was unhappy with The Magic Castle, but I know nothing else about him or his trial.
Genii: Are you in a position to, in some sense, benefit either way from the outcome of this? In other words, if Castle Partners is able to come to an agreement with Milt Larsen and the AMA, and make a better business out of The Magic Castle, you win. However, if Milt Larsen and the AMA decide to vacate the premises and open a new Magic Castle elsewhere in Hollywood, your property still stands to increase in value with whatever new venture you might use it for.
Glover: We want The Castle to remain where it is. We want Milt to remain. We want the Academy to keep its home. We are dedicated to the survival of The Magic Castle. If Milt and the AMA decide to leave, it would be a shame and very unfortunate. The Magic Castle deserves to continue for future generations and to complete the dream that William Larsen, Sr., Milt, Bill, and Irene had for it.
Genii: If Milt and the AMA go elsewhere, will Castle Partners in fact open a magic-themed club on your property?
Glover: I believe that’s their intention.
Genii: And Castle Partners already has the lease.
Glover: There is no lease at the present time.
Genii: What about the booking of entertainment at The Magic Castle. Does Castle Partners wish to assume that duty along with food and beverage?
Glover: There has been much criticism of the entertainment both from members and guests, and by Milt and Dale themselves regarding the way it’s been handled. They realize that it needed change. Dale has taken some responsibility for making changes, and we are very encouraged by that. Castle Partners is dedicated to improving the entertainment and will cooperate with anyone to accomplish this. However, to leave it as it has been in the past is unacceptable to all of us, including Milt and Dale. We had to come up with a plan with enough teeth in it to get them to change. My interest is in improving the food and beverage end of it. The other members of Castle Partners, who themselves are magicians and long term members of the Magic Castle and AMA, want to improve the entertainment. Then the AMA could focus on what they’re really interested in, which is the promotion and performance of magic. We want great food so members and guests come for the food—not stay away because of it. We want it to draw people and become an exciting place as it was at one time. We’ve done all of this at Yamashiro, our restaurant above The Magic Castle on the hill, and the results have been spectacular. We’ve almost doubled our business within the last few years.
Genii: A Castle member wrote the following on the Genii Forum: “The AMA previously paid rent as a portion of food and beverage income. Again, subject to the current negotiations, with the AMA no longer controlling food and beverage, Academy dues will be the only way to pay our rent to CP LLC.” That statement makes it seem as if the AMA will have to pay the same amount of rent, but without the income to do it. Is that true?
Glover: No. The current structure is that Magic Castle Park, the landlord, leases The Magic Castle to Milt Larsen, and he in turn subleases it to the AMA. Under the new proposal, Magic Castle Park will lease to Castle Partners. Castle Partners will pay Magic Castle Park rent based on some percentage of food and beverage. The AMA’s rent will no longer be based on a percentage of food and beverage since they won’t control it. The AMA would pay a fixed rent for the use of the facility as a club house. In the past the AMA’s rent consisted entirely of 12 ½% of food and beverage which it paid to Milt Larsen and Milt paid Magic Castle Park 7%. The amount of the AMA’s rent was controlled by Milt, not Magic Castle Park. Since the AMA will no longer operate food and beverage, they won’t be expected to pay rent based upon that income and will pay less rent than they do now.
Genii: One of the things that I’ve read the members of the AMA talking about on the Internet is that The Castle is really at capacity now, and they think it might be a good idea to move it to increase capacity. However, Milt does have ideas about how to build out and up to increase capacity. Would you support new construction?
Glover: We’re very open to those ideas, and I’ve talked with Milt about them. We’re open to doing whatever will improve The Magic Castle, but change and revitalization are necessary.
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#105937 - 02/06/04 02:27 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Chris Aguilar
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 824
Loc: Sacramento
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Interesting and informative interviews.
Thanks for posting them Richard
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#105939 - 02/06/04 04:38 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Bob
About those scurrilous rumors. The one I hear the most is that the BOD drink up a huge bar tab and charge it to the Castle on a regular basis. I witnessed this just the other night with my own two eyes. It seems like this is a common problem with the BOD seeing as they have gone in the past to yamashiro's charging 1,500 dollar dinners to the Castle (yet they tell the Glovers who BTW offered to pay half of a paint job for the castle, that they have no money to paint the outside of the mansion) As a member I'd be pissed that these are the people representing me. Yet it seems to be hard to vote some of these people out when the count of the votes are an inside job.
Rumors like these aren't repeated as often as they are if they're not true. There is always some part of truth to a nasty rumor (any part of these things would trouble me)
So..make up all of the excuses you want for validating a move to another building(which wouldn't be by choice nor a good one if it was) it's not something that even Milt seems to want to do by choice or he would not be negotiating anything, he'd just move. Nope he'd like to keep it just the way it is now.
I don't blame the Glovers for wanting the place to look better, sound better, and show better. I'm sure with the many things I've seen and heard that if I was the owner hearing and seeing how things are going with the property, I'd be hard pressed to just sitting back and watch it run into the ground. The Castle doesn't need that sort of reputation. Obviously the Glovers care about the Castle and are most likely fed up with how this icon has been characterized by members and guests over the last few years.
So based on the interviews I seem to be right on the money!
The BOD seem to be handling the club poorly. The glovers want to correct that, Milt would prefer (NOT) to move (because he's in a tight spot or he would have moved already) it's no surprise that Milt would hope that the Glovers would reconsider when Milt himself would prefer to **STAY** in the same location. So enough with the “I think it's a great idea to move” because your founder doesn't agree with you right now and neither do the members I spoke to or staff. It's nothing but a dark cloud and I'm hoping Milt can find a way out of this mess and consider all of the members opinions on what should happen to the club. The members need to be more vocal and fight for the Castle. So Delete me (AGAIN).. I'm sure you don't want to hear an opposing view to moving.
-Brian Ditterbrand
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#105940 - 02/06/04 05:40 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Firstly, and above all to Richard - Thank You for posting the interviews. I am telling all of my friends I know to make sure they buy a copy of your next issue for some of the most exciting reading they will want to lay their eyes on about the current issue. I, too, will buy at least 4 - 5 copies to pass out to folks I know. Again - Thank you.
And now, Fierce/Brian...I would like to discuss your most recent post.
BRIAN:
About those scurrilous rumors. The one I hear the most is that the BOD drink up a huge bar tab....
KD:
These are the types of rumors that can destroy an organization. And, bringing them here offers more of a basis of doing that than most anything else that can be written. This is neither admitting to or denying said problems. It is a factor of concern I have over airing dirty laundry such as this in public.
You have stated you wanted to be a member of the Academy. This is not the way to show the support for an organization you talk as if you respect and want to join.
BRIAN:
So..make up all of the excuses you want for validating a move to another building(which wouldn't be by choice nor a good one) it's not something that even Milt seems to want to do by choice or he would not be negotiating anything, he'd just move. Nope he'd like to keep it just the way it is now.
KD:
Again, I must direct you to Whit's posts. Milt has been surveying other sites for some time now...long before this issue came to shove. Do not try to state what it is that Milt wants or is liking to do. What little I know of Milt is that he has dedicated his life to the growth and development of the AMA...and that includes plussing and expanding the clubhouse to all known physical limits to provide the membership space and room. If there is anyone who is aware of the space and needs of our organization, it is Milt Larsen. If there is anyone who is always looking for something new and exciting to plus and change the clubhouse with so it is always exciting and new - it is Milt Larsen. He does not seem a gentleman who sits easy and lets things rest in a state of "as they are" and "the way it is now" for long periods of time. Again, Whit has directly stated in a previous post in this forum that Milt has been out and looking long before this matter took place.
BRIAN:
I don't blame the Glovers for wanting the place to look better, sound better, and show better. I'm sure with the many things I've seen and heard that if I was the owner hearing and seeing how things are going with the property, I'd be hard pressed to just sitting back and watch it run into the ground. The Castle doesn't need that sort of reputation. Obviously the Glovers care about the Castle and are most likely fed up with how this icon has been characterized by members and guests over the last few year.
KD:
This is not the impression I get. The Glovers have made strong suggestions on several items (including staff replacement) which is not within their encompassment as Landlord. The Landlord rents the property to Milt and thusly extended to the AMA. The fact seems to state, they want more money from being in an upscale area.
BRIAN:
So based on the interviews I seem to be right on the money!
KD:
Outside of the two CPLLC interviews, there are two others that seem to seriously state otherwise.
BRIAN:
The BOD seem to be handling the club poorly. The glovers want to correct that...
KD:
Those corrections are not the Glovers to make, they are corrections that must come from the AMA.
BRIAN:
, Milt would prefer (NOT) to move (because he's in a dangerous spot or he would have moved already) it's no surprise that Milt would hope that the Glovers would reconsider when Milt himself would prefer to STAY in the same location. So enough with the “I think it's a great idea to move” because your founder doesn't agree with you right now and neither do the members I spoke to or staff.
KD: How strange...the folks I spoke with were intrigued and excited about the aspect of a new location. All depends on whom you talk to. No matter where you stand on a line, you can find the suport you need for it. And, this is sad as it tears the AMA apart on this issue...and it is an issue we need to stand together on. I am not referring to a relocation move (which, by the way, is a tremendous idea and not enough has been spoke on), but, facing the CPLLC takeover of the operating arm of our club. The AMA must stand as one unit and continue working as that, in all arenas, to meet future growth and goals.
BRIAN:
It's nothing but a dark cloud and I'm hoping Milt can find a way out of this mess and consider all of the members opinions on what should happen to the club.
KD:
I am sure that he will. And, I am certain that Milt is considering all opinions. From the few times I have talked to him, I have garnered that he is a gentleman that weighs all sides of an equation equally before making a decision on what to do. And, that decision will be for the best of the AMA...and not just the AMA that stands today, but, the AMA that will exist tomorrow, and fifty, nay, a hundred years in the future.
Kd
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#105941 - 02/06/04 06:15 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Mark W. Nelson
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
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Dear Michael:
Just for clarification, the James Williams post Whit quoted was actually written by Lew Horowitz, the Treasurer of the Academy of Magical Arts. It was posted on The Castle Forums January 22, 2004, and also appears in the February Newsletter on the Castle website and just mailed to the membership. I think it can be considered accurate.
Dear Brian:
With respect to your post and comment "Rumors like these aren't repeated as often as they are if they're not true." In point of fact, if they were true, they wouldn't be rumors, they would be facts supported with documentation. For example, althout I have no doubt you have seen members of the Academy's Board of Directors imbibing at the Castle bars with other magicians and their guests, did you really "[witness]... just the other night with [your] own two eyes" "the BOD drink up a huge bar tab and charge it to the Castle?" Was the entire Board there? Did they all charge all their drinks to the Castle?
Your posting of the fact that the Glovers offered to pay half the cost of a paint job for the exterior of the Castle is a rumor, too. As far as I am aware, most maintanance and improvement costs at The Magic Castle have been borne by the AMA, and a great deal of it accomplished by volunteer work -- not by the Glovers. I see the Castle trim being painted on a fairly regular basis, and interior improvements and maintanance taking place constantly. One of the historic advantages the Glover family had in the Glover/Larsen relationship is that the Glovers did not have to pay for physical improvements in The Magic Castle unless they agreed in advance.
I have heard all sorts of rumors of financial mismanagement by the Board of Directors in the 25 years I have been a member of the Academy of Magical Arts, but I have never seen any evidence to back them up. I have also heard rumors of theft by the membership from the Castle and the Academy Library, rumors of members or performers tampering with or destroying a magician's props, and heard rumors of members taking advantage of their memberships to lead tours of The Magic Castle for profit. I've even heard rumors of entire acts being stolen!
My point is, though you are free to post rumors you hear on this or any other website, please don't assume, or expect others to assume, that "There is always some part of truth to a nasty rumor" unless you are prepared to support it with evidence.
Best wishes always,
Mark W. Nelson
_________________________
Best,
Mark
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#105942 - 02/06/04 06:34 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Fierce/Brian:
To say "Rumours like these aren't repeated as often as they are if they're not true. There is always some part of truth to a nasty rumor" - is simply illogical and incorrect. There are many many nasty rumours, many of them injurous to particular people, or ethnic groups, etc. that get spread, and have no truth what ever. The fact that people jump on a bandwagon of inuendo has no bearing on their truth.
Richard: Many thanks for posting the interviews. I think it has made many things clearer, at least to me. I understand the Glovers' position, which is a legitimate one for any landlord to have. Its also true that many commercial landlords these days specify aspects of the business they want to occupy a space. For example, an upscale shopping mall these days not only decides what types of stores they want in which locations, they also will specify things related to decore, or how upscale they want the business to be, etc.
After reading the interview, I think I understand the Glovers' concerns in terms of wanting to deal with a business entity that will be not dependent on the health and longevity of one person who is getting on in years. I also understand that they would like a place that "shows well" with good food, ambience, well run, etc. to complement their hotel and surrounding area, and that they feel this will be good for magic in L.A. and the AMA and Magic Castle as well.
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#105943 - 02/06/04 08:05 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Dear Mark,
Thank you for your response. I was not questioning the accuracy of the information, although I am looking forward to seeing it in the financial statement.
What I was questioning, is how that information (from Lew, posted by JW) translates into Whit's quote:"We just had the most successful year in our 40 year history!"
I just don't see the correlation between Lew's info & Whit's statement.
Michael
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#105944 - 02/06/04 09:36 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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You :"You have stated you wanted to be a member of the Academy. This is not the way to show the support for an organization you talk as if you respect and want to join."
Me: I don't want to be a member of an organization that is run by (or viewed) as a bunch of boozers who don't work for there members. I'm shocked at how often the BOD is viewed negatively. Who would want to be a part of that? My view of the Castle was one of wonder and excitement and as I was practicing to apply, I started learning more about the organization I was about to join and my view changed. Granted I've met lots of wonderful kind magicians. It has been very depressing to know the state that the place is in. I am truly sadden.
These rumors true or not, I've listened to so often that I have problems with an organization that would allow something like that to continue if only rumor. From what I gather, this badmouthing of the BOD by members should have been addressed seeing is in your own rule books regarding defaming other magicians. Yet it seems to go on and on... perhaps because everyone agrees with the comments regarding the state of the BOD and can't address or correct them so they vent, (I don't blame them) I think the Glovers feel the same way considering the state of things. In fact there actions only echoes what the members have been saying to me these last two years. I'm sorry that Milt feels the place is just running fine with the current BOD. Why would Milt admit that the current BOD is a wash, that'd be giving justification for the Glovers stepping in. Of course he'll say they're doing just fine.
I can see no other reason why so many would be saying such rumors to a non-member. They have no motive by doing so. These magicians don't seem like a pack of wolves, it's just common knowledge with regards to how the BOD seem to run things from the looks of it.
If I WAS a member I would be pushing factual evidence regarding the large bar tabs and comps (because I can and have the evidence and not just my own two eyes to prove it) Would you prefer that you have me, an outsider bring this evidence to light? hmm I have thought about that. No, this is something that the members are all to well aware of and something that would be more valued and trusted information if a member of the AMA was to present it for me. We'll see how things go in the next month or two, it may not be necessary. I just had to mention the REAL problem VS the let pick up and go argument that seems to dominate this thread from a curtain few.
If you look at the interviews and all of the comments from Castle Partners, former members, and the Glovers, it all seems to point to (in all logical motives) that the way that the castle has been run by the BOD has been failing. Who knows... it could be because of the economy, or land value, or mismanagement, but it it's not about Glover greed. Even still, while a newer and larger building would great if it were possible, the trouble comes in the cost and **animosity** in such a thought. You have all clearly pointed out that the membership is split on these issues, so without understanding the **motives** of all of the negotiating parties, confusion and destruction of the castle and the AMA is a strong possibility if a move was to happen.
Who has the right to dictate the future of the Castle....Lets see... the Glovers have every right to do whatever they want with the property and structure (however from what I've seen they'd just like to make it better, newer and have it continue on after everyone's dead) or Milt the creator and founder, who built up the value of the organization, the structure, the name, or the members who pay there dues who for the most part just want to be a part of an organization that they can trust will have some respect, dignity and there best interests for there moneys worth! Lets face facts... The Castle belongs to the Glovers, Milt and the Members, the tricky part is only one man has the power to pull the plug on the "Castle" and Milt wants to fight for that power seat. I'd hope he considers a vote by the membership on staying or moving after making clear the honest "MOTIVES" of all negotiation parties.
The Castle is only a block away from one of the biggest Hollywood icons in the country The Chinese Theater. The City doesn't want to see the castle go, people travel around the world to go to THAT location. Pulling the facade down to the 2X4's would be sudden death and cost more money and time that people could fathom. No organization could handle such a thing unless it is a group effort. I don't think the interviews did anything but leave us hanging.
-Brian D
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#105945 - 02/06/04 11:40 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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I must say, that I am tremendously reassured by the complete text of the interviews. Thank you, Richard.
I've always believed that intelligent, well-meaning people can take different positions. I was profoundly impressed by the measure of honesty and candor expressed by all four people. It amazes me that we could have progressed to this situation, with that being the case....but stranger things are true. At any rate, all posturing aside, it seems like the sides are getting together and communicating in good faith.
With respect to the operations of the club, I note that Lew Horowitz reported that the restaurant and bar operations *lost* money in September, although about 1/10th as much as the previous year. If I understand the most current information, as stated by Lew, the restaurant and bar lost money every month of the year except December, which he projects is enough to make the year positive. 11 out of twelve months as a loss is not a very positive business outcome. I have not seem the gross quoted, but it seems like the Castle is running on an exceedingly thin margin....also not what you'd consider good and stable.
I was part of a group of 7 people conversing with a Board member, casually. He ordered drinks "all around", and only when I tried to pay did I find that it was all comped. ( I gave a tip, which the Board member did not).
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#105946 - 02/07/04 07:59 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Brad Henderson
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 434
Loc: austin, tx
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I have not weighed in with any opinion as of yet, but last night I stayed up thinking about the situation.
If the problem truly is one of space, that should be the impetus to move. That, to me, is the one real POSITIVE reason to move.
As far as business concerns go, would the this situation be amenable to both sides.
Expand the AMA BoD to include a supervisory board of voting members whose qualifications are business related, not magic related. This could, of course, include member of the Castle Partners. Membership to this board would require the approval of the Glover family as well as the current AMA board.
This board would be required to vote on all matters relating to the issues under concern in this thread, food, beverage, etc. The entertainment side of things I don't feel has been clearly addressed by anyone (as it is clearly a touchy subject), but is a factor they may be required to vote on as well.
The members of the supervisory board will have a number of votes equally to that of the current AMA board, the managing board.
Nothing then can get passed unless it serves both parties needs.
Further, is nothing EVER gets passed, I think that becomes a good indication that something seriously is wrong. However, I feel the business oriented community may have better tools at getting out these issues to the membership in order to inform them, and gain support, than the more collegial magic world which sadly relies more on rumor mongering than memo's and 2 year strategy plans. Also, going to the membership with information is always a good thing.
Nevertheless, a good idea is a good idea, and whether it comes from the supervisory board or the managing board would be irrelevant. If the party can show that their plan serves the Castle, there should be no reason why it should not be seen to have value by others members from the other party.
Likewise, it would behoove both parties to insure its ranks are filled with people that have the parties best interest at heart, and not personal agendas.
I love the Castle. I have been contemplating moving to LA to be closer to it. I would love to see a win-win situation.
(have to run, gave this a quick edit, may change when I return. Sent in good thoughts.)
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#105947 - 02/07/04 08:21 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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BRIAN D. –
Rather than attend to the speculation on which B.O.D. member you wish to attach rumors to, consider that challenge I offered you several posts back. Join the AMA and work for change if you are so disappointed. Otherwise, do not stand outside the wall and talk about the problems therein.
As for matters of which party, CPLLC (Glovers & Friends) or AMA, Milt & all of us who follow his lead…has done right, wrong, indifferent in matters…again…the past, at this point, no longer matters. What matters is where we are – at this moment, here and now. And, at this moment, here and now, we are faced with a very serious issue…that of loss of control of the operating arm of our club. This stands to splinter and schism the club, more so than the battering rumors that are bally cries used by you to illustrate your points on why the current B.O.D. is failing. Those statements from you will only serve to turn new people away, not bring people to the door. If you so desire to see our organization grow and change for the better, then, help pave a better path to our door by focusing on the positive aspects of the club – those which I brought to your attention in an earlier post in this thread…let that which is good sell the organization and focus on that…you might be surprised at the perspective change you would get.
Your last paragraph:
“The Castle is only a block away from one of the biggest Hollywood icons in the country The Chinese Theater. The City doesn't want to see the castle go, people travel around the world to go to THAT location.”
KD: Here we go – again. People travel around the world to see the clubhouse – which is known by a given name. The location is nothing, only a location. It is what is inside that location that makes the difference.
The new locations are still historical sites (as I understand) and seem to be in the same general area of residence. And, they seem to offer better traffic flow in and out for members and guests to drive through for arrival and departure from our venue. The “historic” aspect of being near Hollywood icons will still be there. In fact, the AMA is, in and of itself, a Hollywood icon, no matter where we are located.
BRIAN:
“Pulling the facade down to the 2X4's would be sudden death and cost more money and time that people could fathom. No organization could handle such a thing unless it is a group effort.”
KD: Uh, you aren’t fully aware of the amazing scope of dedicated folk that are members of the AMA who already have taken out their tool belts, work clothes, and hard hats…leaving those hanging by the door and just waiting for Milt’s word to “go”. There are several professional members that have offered their services and backing in making this re-location happen…without cost to the AMA. I imagine that you would see work crews of the AMA membership willing to go at it 24-7 stopping only to eat and lightly sleep (and do a few other body functions as well) in order to ensure our clubhouse move is a quick and easy transition.
BRIAN:
“ I don't think the interviews did anything but leave us hanging.”
KD: They have now shown a balanced view to the sides that are participating in this matter. You have the CPLLC side shown from the perspective of Ms. Zimmerman & Mr. Glover, and the AMA view from Milt Larsen & Dale Hindman. These are the public statements given, and, allow those of us within the AMA to at least be better aware of what the public statements are. These do not reveal the material “in-between the lines” of what the CPLLC has stated or intends, nor do they fully reveal the cards that Milt and Dale might be holding in their hands. To try and glean what that will be is an exercise in speculation, and, not the best exercise to be done here. The only thing that should be done at this point is for the AMA to rally as a whole and stand behind Milt and his decision, rather than allow ourselves to schism into two forces that against each other will pull.
Best to you –
Kd
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#105949 - 02/07/04 09:25 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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kd, I would assert that Milt has given his preference...staying. (remember, he likes the old, beaten up place). He is trying to work it out. I think it is the best way to go.
As for the AMA being an icon, I think it does not help to overstate things: I've NEVER seen a performer have on his card that he's performed for the AMA. To put public recognition of the AMA on the same par with the Chinese theater is....over the top. I don't think we rank up there with Disneyland, either.
Here is a copyright question for the experts: It is clear that Milt owns the copyright for the Magic Castle name. Would this prohibit publicity that identified the Lane Mansion as "The site of the Original Magic Castle"? Seems like it would sort of fall into the same category as "George Washington slept here"?
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#105951 - 02/07/04 12:02 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Brad Henderson: I think your idea would solve the problem if the Glovers weren't fed up. Hope they're thinking like you.
Kym: it is your history and "stuff in the past" that has created this issue. It is very relevant seeing that this seems to be the main motive to come in.
Acetwo: you said in one sentence what I have been trying to say in longer posts. If Milt has been ready to move (like these others seem to paint), gearing up for it for over two years, looking for a new larger locations, then why negotiate anything? Why not move if it'd cost the AMA nothing. It makes no sense...
I looked at the interviews. Why state that you've been expecting this trouble, look for new locations, have an army of do-gooders who will drop everything 24/7 just to negotiate a NEW LEASE at the current location. The motive seems to be scare tactic. Milt wants to stay otherwise, what is holding them there?
I will join the AMA if it doesn't remain in limbo for months on end. I have no problem with the AMA, only the BOD. Even still, I doubt I as a newcomer could do anything to change the situation if 5,000 members have done little to improve the current troubles.
No, this hair-trigger standoff is up to Milt and Milt alone from the looks of things. BTW I never compared the Castle to the Chinese. But, they are both well known beloved icons in Hollywood.
Even if the Castle moved, there would be a "Washnigton lived here" group of people that would go just becuase of the loaction.
-BD
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#105952 - 02/07/04 01:14 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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There have been posts about the abuse of pseudonyms, and I think it is fair to say a word or two. It is easy to characterize a person who hides behind a pseudonym as being cowardly. And I would so characterize a person who did this for the sole purpose of character assassination without accountability.
However, it is altogether another kettle of fish, when the person posting is putting the welfare of their family and their job at risk, by speaking honestly.
For example (one that I'm positive is not true, although I can't fairly say that I know for a fact), if it were found out that James Williams were consulting for CP, there would be an enormous effort to boot him out of his job. If a magician who performs regularly at the Castle were similarly found out, she could kiss that gig goodbye. There have already been allegations about management doing things to "irritate" and "impede" the activities of new people running for the BOD. Whether such things are true is fairly irrelevant. The fact that people can conceive that such things would be done WOULD make people legitimately fear for their position.
So, while it may be cowardly to protect one's family and occupation, it certainly is so to accuse such people, when the speaker has nothing to lose.
I look at how Mark Suzuki was accused of all sorts of things, just because he questioned various assumptions. I don't know that there could be any retribution towards him. I can imagine what would happen if anyone who management had power over, spoke up in what seemed to be support of the Glovers.
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#105954 - 02/07/04 01:37 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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To ACE2
You write:
"kd, I would assert that Milt has given his preference...staying. (remember, he likes the old, beaten up place). He is trying to work it out. I think it is the best way to go."
KD: I keep hearkening back to Whit's posts on this and things I have read or heard elsewhere - Milt has been out looking for a new location before this came to pass. I think there is no question the folks like the old mansion, heck, I love the place. It is just too small and outdated for the needs of the AMA: our members, our performers, our attending guests.
You continue:
"As for the AMA being an icon, I think it does not help to overstate things: I've NEVER seen a performer have on his card that he's performed for the AMA. To put public recognition of the AMA on the same par with the Chinese theater is....over the top. I don't think we rank up there with Disneyland, either."
KD: Actually, I think the AMA is a tad better than Disneyland.
Well, here again, I may have not fully stated properly what I was getting at - for that, I apologize.
I'll put the clubhouse of the AMA on a public recognition level that is in the same arena as the Chinese Theatre. The other thing, it gets back to that seperation of organization and clubhouse that is all important. In an earlier post I stated this matter of being recognized more as the clubhouse than as the organization. I feel it more important to be recognized as the organization than as the clubhouse. And, no matter where the organization is placed, that new clubhouse will still bear it's time honored name...at least, that is the impression I am getting from reading the posts of Milt. So, name recognition will continue...no matter where the facility sits.
Better? I hope so.
Thanks for the post - KD
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#105956 - 02/07/04 02:02 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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BRIAN D - okay - let us try to see what you are getting at here.
BRIAN:
"it is your history and "stuff in the past" that has created this issue. It is very relevant seeing that this seems to be the main motive to come in.
KD: Referring to the history of the AMA at The Magic Castle? My personal history - on this and other forums - is to support the AMA and stand by that organization. The main motive I have presented to join has been what we (the AMA)offer:an amazing library, the ongoing lecture series, the chance to learn from the best in the business, the chance to develop lasting relationships of friendship and professional interfacing in our industry/hobby/art/craft of magic.
My challenge to you to join on the grounds of your constantly stating what is wrong with the B.O.D. is this; YOU can make a difference. Rather than sitting outside and pointing fingers, get inside and work. If what you are going to do is try and gripe about the situation and the problems that you wish to wait to clear before you join, you will never join. There will always be problems and difficulties in any organization you belong to. This is just the nature of the beast. So - either you will decide to become a member and take part and garner your riches from what is offered to the members and not worry about the politics of the thing, or, you will not join and point your finger at how troubled the organization is without wanting to do something about it. That is my point in entirety.
BRIAN D: "If Milt has been ready to move (like these others seem to paint), gearing up for it for over two years, looking for a new larger locations, then why negotiate anything? Why not move if it'd cost the AMA nothing. It makes no sense..."
KD: Milt has been looking - in what I see as an effort to prepare for the needs of the near future. Whether or not he has found anything is another issue. Negotiations have become a neccessity due to the situation that has suddenly arisen betwixt CPLLC and the AMA. I believe that a relocation would have been in the offing, anyway...just not so much in the limelight of matters as it now is due to the blaring interuption of the CPLLC manuvering in Milt's and the AMA's faces.
BRIAN D:
"I looked at the interviews. Why state that you've been expecting this trouble, look for new locations, have an army of do-gooders who will drop everything 24/7 just to negotiate a NEW LEASE at the current location. The motive seems to be scare tactic. Milt wants to stay otherwise, what is holding them there?"
KD: I do not think anyone stated they expected this trouble. Heck, this arose out of the ether at the beginning of January and took everyone in the AMA by storm. The lease negotiation is an on-going matter that Milt has been contending with much longer than the current situation betwixt CPLLC and the AMA. Scare tactics? The CPLLC seems to be far more scary to me than anything else happening. A group sliding in under the radar and attempting to take over control of the building, the food services, the bars, and the entertainment venues...that is frightening. Even more so, the divisions this is creating in the AMA.
BRIAN D:
"I will join the AMA if it doesn't remain in limbo for months on end. I have no problem with the AMA, only the BOD. Even still, I doubt I as a newcomer could do anything to change the situation if 5,000 members have done little to improve the current troubles."
KD: Brian, the smallest mouse can terrify an elephant. The point is, anyone can work to make change. It only takes one person to toss a pebble into a pond to start a series of ripples that effects the entire body of water. Each member brings something to the AMA - in fact, any organization they belong to. And, the more they get involved within that organization - for whatever reason...be it desiring change to be made or wanting to be more a part of the entity they love and support...the more effective their ability to change what is perceived as existing order.
BRIAN D:
"No, this hair-trigger standoff is up to Milt and Milt alone from the looks of things."
KD: The negotiating is a two sided affair. The standoff belongs to the CPLLC, to Milt, and the AMA. What follows will be from the support of the AMA members and their loyalty to Milt and the club he has helped to build.
BRIAN D:
"BTW I never compared the Castle to the Chinese. But, they are both well known beloved icons in Hollywood."
KD: Brian, the statement in your post I was responding to,"The Castle is only a block away from one of the biggest Hollywood icons in the country The Chinese Theater. The City doesn't want to see the castle go, people travel around the world to go to THAT location", is what alluded to that. It was my error in interpreting your use of the statement. Apologies on that.
BRIAN D:
"Even if the Castle moved, there would be a "Washnigton lived here" group of people that would go just becuase of the loaction."
KD: Heck, if the AMA moves, our clubhouse relocates, and CPLLC does manage to take the skeletal framework of a historic house and rebuild a new magic oriented nightclub, I would go there. Why? Not for the location, but, to stand in the support of magic entertainment. There are not enough venues dedicated to our profession (Las Vegas excluded) for people to enjoy.
But, those who come to go to the MAGIC CASTLE, no matter what building houses it, will always be able to enjoy that which they know as "THE MAGIC CASTLE". And, that is because the organization that Milt Larsen leads will be there operating it for folks to continue to enjoy.
Hope that helps a bit -
Kd
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#105957 - 02/07/04 02:23 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Pete Biro
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Hollyweird
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#105958 - 02/07/04 02:49 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Pete Biro agreed... I give up.
If anything Kym, you have state your point of view and I have mine. Time will tell.
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#105959 - 02/07/04 03:49 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Brian D -
Yuppers - opinions are like that...so are views.
Hope to see you around the Castle - either as a guest or member...we can chug a cup of coffee and shoot the breeze.
All the best -
Kd
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#105960 - 02/07/04 03:50 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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We are in agreement, I think, Kym. I think that the Castle is better than Disneyland, too. 
You mentioned:
-------------
"kd, I would assert that Milt has given his preference...staying. (remember, he likes the old, beaten up place). He is trying to work it out. I think it is the best way to go."
KD: I keep hearkening back to Whit's posts on this and things I have read or heard elsewhere - Milt has been out looking for a new location before this came to pass. I think there is no question the folks like the old mansion, heck, I love the place. It is just too small and outdated for the needs of the AMA: our members, our performers, our attending guests.
------------------
I'm nost so sure about the timeframe. Remember, Milt has been on "notice" that there were issues, and that there needed to be changes for the long term, for two years. Was he looking before that? I've heard nothing to indicate that. As for the big surprise, I remember a variety of reassuring messages that "all is well" with the lease, that new carpeting would not be getting laid if there were a problem, that we would see for ourselves......what kind of disconnect was that? I'm not sure how things got so out of hand, without anyone knowing. It feels like the problems that were brewing were just not aknowledged, and were not disclosed to the membership (I'd harken back to the candidates forum, and wonder why these issues never came up..one incumbant thinking that all is well and no changes were needed, of any kind....guess they were pretty clueless, eh?), hoping to get the election behind, and THEN dealing with whatever small things needed to be remedied. (After all, after 40 years with little change, why would anyone consider any demand for change from the landlord seriously?)
I know who's watch this has occurred upon. Does this mean nothing?
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#105961 - 02/11/04 08:30 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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I heard the BOD were meeting at the castle last night. Hope they announce something.
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#105962 - 02/11/04 10:09 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Richard Kaufman
The Chief Genii
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 12975
Loc: Washington DC
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Brian, there was no one from Genii with the AMA last night.
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#105966 - 02/11/04 09:42 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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you make a good point Mark. Let's hope for the best. IT seems the coaster has reached the top... I think.
I will be going for my membership either way, everyone here has been supportive of the idea of backing up the AMA, and I'm with them on that.
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#105967 - 02/12/04 05:35 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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I continue to be astonished by how some in the membership do NOT support Milt and the AMA Board.
What are people thinking, when they say, "we love them, we will do whatever they say", then, whilst they are in the MIDST of negotiating, post that the AMA and Milt should NOT negotiate, should NOT stay at the current location, should NOT cooperate with the the Glovers in trying to find an acceptable solution.
I would never have thought I'd see members post what amounts to sabotage to Milt and the AMA. Sort of a "Don't you get it Milt and Dale? What do you know about what we should do! We know better, and you should stop your efforts immediately!!" Sheesh!
This is a clearly complicated situation. We have been asked nothing. No vote. We have been given no proposal to peruse. Our Board is not informing us of progress, and is not soliciting our opinion.
I say, if we want to support Milt and Dale, we should stand back and let them do their work. Stop the sniping. Stop undermining our people. If we trust them, then trust them to do the right thing, not force them into positions designed by rhetoric to further whatever petty goals we think should be obtained at this time.
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#105969 - 02/15/04 04:34 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Richard Kaufman
The Chief Genii
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 12975
Loc: Washington DC
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There is no news right now: things are very quiet and purposefully so. Everyone has made their statements for all to read, and until there is some genuine news, I wouldn't expect to hear anything else for a while.
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#105970 - 02/16/04 08:27 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well, I wouldn't say nothing is happening.
The Castle is loosing it's shirt. Whatever could I mean by that? Well, it is NOT december any longer, folks, so that means it's red ink time again!
There are some very basic issues that could well stand clarification by the membership. For example, what is really expected by the membership of the clubhouse? By this I mean, we have a place that is virtually deserted 4 nites a week. A lot of discussion is raised about why Fri and Sat are no longer "member-only" nites. The answer: Gotta make the finances.
Now, we have had a serious discussion about moving the location of the Castle. This is certainly on the radar screen. But, my friends, if you think you are going to easily find a landlord that is going to subsidize the Castle on a long term basis to the tune of hundreds of thousands a year, I want what you're smoking. (Had the rent reflected the CPI for the last 40 years, as my friend John Scanlon has advocated that the best leases do, it would have gone up 460%, instead of the near 0% that has been achieved). In the sheltered environment of the Lane mansion, we have been able to take a laid-back approach to finances.
HOWEVER, in a situation in which we will actually be responsible for the full till, nites where the restaurant is ***** 15% ****** of capacity, as it ROUTINELY is RIGHT NOW, three nites a week, will be a different problem, entirely.
What restaurant can operate like that routinely?
So, do we want the autonomy, as Whit seems to advocate, to do a lousy job of getting people in, or do we improve the situation?
Remember, if we move, we will use whatever resources we have, to accomplish that move. We are currently throwing money away on the non-profitable operation of the Castle. This will continue for the next, oh, 10 months.
Assuming that our expenses will not be any different than now, we will continue to lose money until December (and perhaps even then?) New assessments? New loans? Going to the new landlord and asking for breaks?
Kym H says:
We cannot fix these now as there is a far more pressing matter to be attended to. That is just a reality.
****
How about doing more than one thing at a time. I don't recall the Board being elected to do one thing at a time. There are Board members who are "fixtures", present on the Board because of their past glories, because of their names. They seem to have little function. Amazingly, we accept that when the "Sh** hits the fan, it is also just fine for them to continue to just sit around. I "hear" that Milt and Dale are meeting with the CP group. Cannot the rest of the Board be attending to the operations of the Castle?
******
Right now, those are battles I will not attend to, nor are they battles our organization should be attending to.
***************
Sorry to tell you, but we have an election coming up. I feel that if we have a group of impotent Board members, incapable of dealing with more than one thing at a time, lets get some people with talent aboard, who can.
*************
... Allowing ourselves to turn and scramble over issues inward - no matter how painful or real they are - when the enemy is at the door - leaves no guard on that door.
*******************8
You really give no credit to the Board at all.
*******************
We can only fix one thing at a time. And, there is ONE THING we need to fix right now! And, if that structure and organization is to be torn apart and rebuilt, let it be by our own hands...when we have a strong foundation of terra firma under our shore...and not the current ice float.
*******************
Only one thing at a time? Then we might as well just pack the boxes, and set up the auctions, now. We had BETTER work on multiple things, ESPECIALLY the things that have gotten into this mess, or we just carry them over into a situation that is worse than the current.
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#105971 - 02/16/04 08:46 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Continuing on the idea of what can we do, irrespective:
I'm continually astonished by some members lack of understanding of what sort of resource the Castle is: a HIGHLY desirable and visible entity.
We have millions of people who want to get in. They cannot. You can spend 80 Billion dollars a year in advertising, AND THEY WILL NOT COME. You can double the door charge. You can give the food away. It doesn't matter. THEY CANNOT GET IN. Because that is how we want it....a private club. (Except, that it isn't really. If you "know", you can just walk up, pay the cover, and get in.)
The Board has been impotent in getting people in on the weeknites. A few events here and there, military and such, that have worked marvelously. No continuity. A fellow I met up at the Castle, a friend of a member, had worked out a thing for 50 people who belonged to his activity club to come up on a lite nite, probably making that nite profitable. I doubt that the management knew about it, and certainly have not followed up on it. A scheme was used to avoid the "banquet" scenario, successfully. He apparently could have brought in a hundred, and this was apparently the 3rd or 4th time he had done this. Give the guy a bloody membership! I hear the guy was given so much hassle in these ventures, that he has sworn never to bother again. Can't we build on success?
Another member has been involved in trying to put together a pass program for doctors at a local hospital. Lets see. Gaining access for slack time for 1,000 millionaires. What's the percentage in that? (elitist, perhaps?)
Why is it not in operation?....concern about whether the Board and management would be offended by his initiative!
At one point last year, the Castle was loosing an average of $1000/day. No reason to think it's different now. We can fix that, now. Whether we stay or leave, fixing that makes us phenominally stronger.
We'd better be able to do more than one thing at a time.
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#105972 - 02/16/04 09:30 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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I'd have to agree with Acetwo.. The Castle has been empty many times this last week. I know they were expecting a larger crowd this last week but lost 20%-30% of there reservations for some unknown reason. The crouds were small to begin with and this is a trend I've seen since December.
It's one thing to not really care about making money to keep the place going... but it's another when you don't have anyone to do your magic to.
I've been continually dissapoint and leave around 10PM each night. I've gone home early bacause nobody sticks around past then and they normally stop the last shows past 10.
Members or non-memebers, anyone will do.. just as long we can share our passion for magic with **someone**
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#105974 - 02/16/04 08:20 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Pete Biro
you're thinking in the right place, but closing on a Monday does'nt sound like it's needed if the place is worth visiting.
When I first started learning to play the piano, my family got me this cheap old beaten up used piano for christmas. I could hardly make it sound good because i was frustrated with how old and used it was. Then one day, I had this professional pianist drop by our house and he played the keys off of that thing. I'd never heard anything so amazing come out of it until then. It gave me hope that I could do the same thing with it someday.
My point.
Take an old 8 mm camera and hand it to a world class film director who knows what he's doing and he'll make an epic with it.
The castle just needs to think outside the box and the place will be packed every night, **with magicians to**
but new and old wounds must heal and we have to stop the hatchet crew that's creating them.
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#105975 - 02/18/04 07:47 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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I do not disagree with Pete in principle, but...
I have learned over the 40 years in the restaurant business is that closing down on Mondays because lack of business, is a very poor business decision. Marketing to bring that day up to at least the breakeven point is a much better alternative with longer term results.
I believe closing during the day side of the Castle 4 days a week is also another bad business decision. You have that great venue sitting empty. A marketing plan would take care of that in a hot minute. I know I know, it has been tried in the past and did not work. The lack of a marketing/business plan and expertise was missing. So of course it did not work. I would go so far as BET that if I could not generate PROFITS by the end of the first year. I would pay the loss. BUT, if I could generate any profit, I'd get to keep it all for the first year. I would guess there is about, minimum $700,000 in lost sales by not being opened on the Day Side. That amounts to $84,000 in additional C=rent for the Glovers.
Contract with the zillion tours that drive past the Castle during lunch to have a lunch at the Magic Castle. Yes, open it to the public on the day side. Who cares. Make it JUST a restaurant during the day side. Hand out guest passes to these folks and invite them to return some Mon or Tuesday night.
In any business you MUST take calculated chances. Hire the right people, set performance/profit goals, give them a budget and turn em lose. Drive around Hollywood and visit restaurants from M&F to McD. They are PACKED during lunch. PACKED. We are CLOSED CLOSED.
John Scanlan
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#105976 - 02/18/04 08:18 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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The amount misinformation being published up here is terrifying. People thinking they have the inside scoop and in reality don’t know squat. 2-3 or you are DEAD on. I have my theory on that, but for now...
I gather many if not most of you believe the AMA/Milt is sitting on their collective butts waiting for the hammer to drop? So you revert to “speculation” to bring your points that the Castle is “crashing” or spinning in the toilet bowl. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Our BOD/Milt got a HUGE, HUGE wake up call on 1/8. One that was right out of left field. Rest assured them and others are working day and night. The resurgence of resolve is beyond measurement in the 40 year history of the Club. Nothing has been thrown on the wall yet.
Going back to day one, Bill brought in Associates to make up for the loss in revenue that magicians did not have because he no doubt felt they could not support the club (nothing as change in 40 years here folks). Everything was sweet with happy magicians walking around and Associates bringing in their clients. Then we needed more money to build something. We raised the price of dinners. A few more years go by and expenses are climbing, so we raise the door charge. Here we are in 2004 with a classic case of the tail chasing the BIG FAT and aging dog.
CPLLC felt they could do a better job and frankly I have no doubt they can based on what I know about these folks. But at what cost to us the most common of dominators, the magicians. As stated WE don’t “support” the Castle by purchasing at least 2 full priced dinners each month, but wait…magicians are poor. There is that damned dog again.
OK let’s cut the food price in half so we will dine three times a month. After the landlord gets his 12%, food cost 40%, labor 25% and controllable and fixed expenses are taken from the price of the meal, what is left? No doubt it will be a negative number.
OK so what is the solution? Our business model is 35–40 years old. We have not wavered off it at all. We have NO written business plan for the future and we’re stuck in the goop of not being able to change after 40 years. BUT JOHN it has worked for us for 40 years! From a club standpoint is has worked like a charm. From a business standpoint is has been failing. Companies that don’t change cease to exist. Our landlord and some of our members have seen the same opportunity for change and “took over”. They have proposed the same thing as any first year business student would. Separate the Magicians (AMA) from running the business side. The turnaround of the “other” restaurant on the hill has been their model. The Glovers are confident they can do the same with the Castle. I am confident they can as well. But why in the hell let them?
Can/could we run the club and the F&B better? IMHO I never doubted we could. Most of you before and after I was on the BOD would hear my ranting on this topic. My attitude about how magicians, bankers and accountants run a food and beverage operation is legendary. From an advisory roll they are valuable, but to be counted on to run that business is another thing. I am NOT disrespecting or coming down on the current BOD or people running the Castle. They have done a brilliant and thankless job over the years. But times have changed and we have not.
Our organization needs to be run by a BOD of people no different than those who sit on thousands of other company and association boards. A BOD should be a diverse collection of talented business people from the community. Members AND non members. A board should aim at focusing senior management's concerns on what the organization should be; they should not be asked to decide on the color of the new drapes or if the maintenance man is in need of firing as they are today.
Our current way of running a business is passé and the result of what CPLLC did or is doing is the end product of how well we have run the business “lately”. Times have changed, we have not
If indeed the BOD and Milt split off, I prey they have the wisdom to put the old organization structure in the shredder and start over. I am weary of hearing “It has worked for us for over 40 years….” Comments like that will seal our future in the past. An attitude such as that will carry the cancer from our existing club to our new club. If indeed we’re going to do that, I’ll be the first to hand the keys to Baghdad Mike.
No matter what WE (Milt and the AMA) are in the driver’s seat. Without the magicians, the name The Magic Castle, and the décor, they have nothing but an empty building. They are going to have to spend a LOT of cash to build the building from the ground up ONLY to become yet another night club/Restaurant in Hollywood destined for failure. What do you suppose the cost to do that would be? What would be the ROI? In would NOT work. Lose the AMA and Milt, you might as well bulldoze the building and put in a gas station.
If Milt wants to pull up anchor and move (which I endorse) we will have a brand new shiny Magic Castle, with the same problems we have now unless we change our attitude about who runs the business side, and who runs the magic side.
Because of the wake up call on 1/8 I suspect I am preaching to the choir on that point. Change is in the air….our BOD is informed and we will wait for “the word” from Milt.
John Scanlan
M-9872 Life
626-664-3597
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#105977 - 02/19/04 01:59 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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so what you're saying John is, with a "NEW" talented group of people on the BOD, buisness types, and non, magical and non, things could be fine just where they are with a new buisness model?
Sounds about right to me.
You also say Milt taking everything but the walls would make it very expensive to rebuild in the current location a (new magic themed pad) for the Glovers... I agree, but I also think it'd be just as expensive if not impossible to create a new location for the AMA that fits the current stylings of the MC.
Both projects would be VERY expensive either way.
The best outcome is the one in which everyone can stay, and everyone is happy with a plan that works because you're right, it's not working.
good luck to them.
I mean seriously what's the deal with "no local acts booked" and what the hell was with that poor and confusing exuse?!
Are the BOD so pissed at the members and can't figure out who's supporting the CP that it's a "kill them all and let God sort it out scenerio"?!?! nice move...
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#105978 - 02/19/04 04:42 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Pete Biro
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Hollyweird
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Acts are aleady booked for a looooooooong time in advance, and Ron "holding off" until he knows what's happening is smart.
Let's say (worst case) Ron is booted out and the CPLLC folks decide to dump all the booked acts. That would screw up the performers who didn't take other paying gigs and find themselved out of work.
Frankly, Milt could move us in a long weekend.
Sure the place (one I know of) wouldn't have ALL THE STUFF immediately, but it could be operating in no time and then props, posters, stuff could be added as he went along. There are a huge number of folks that have offered their services, and company equipment... FREE... to move if need be.
Many, and I lean this way, would like a better place, better kitchen, bigger show areas, better stage, etc., and a move is almost the only solution.
_________________________
Stay tooned.
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#105979 - 02/19/04 06:24 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yup, Pete is dead right. Listen to Milt, and he will tell you he can take the place down room by room and put it up room by room at a new location. No one knows who is and who isn’t supporting the CPLLC. I simply can’t imagine out of the 5,000 or so folks that more than a handful would ever stick with CPLLC.
Both projects either way will be expensive. There are more than one way to generate the funds necessary without it costing the current membership a dime. How about selling 100 life memberships at $10K each? From 3500 hundred paying members, I can’t see that being a problem. We could make them our first ever Premium Life member. Premium LIFE members will have preferred seating at all shows and dinner.
All we need is to replace them with NEW members. No doubt the NEW Magic Castle will be very nice. Lots of PR to drive in new people. NEW energy, new purpose. Pete you’re a genius!!!
Brian, don’t know how long you’ve been connected to the MC, but staying their under the rule of CPLLC is a worst case scenario. I can’t frankly see a better scenario than the current BOD running the Magic end of the business and a BOD running the business end. You would have the best of both worlds and not under the thumb of the CPLLC.
John Scanlan
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#105980 - 02/19/04 07:17 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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John "$10K each- From 3500 hundred paying members, I can’t see that being a problem"
Me:what are you smoking John..
regarding John and Pete's last post.
Me: Great! so, we're moving for sure then! You'd better let "Milt" know (since there is no other choice) tell him that there is no need to negotiate anything because "there is no other way but move" so we can get this over with?
sounds like you both have a one track minds on the subject. Luckly Milt plans trying to -stay- at the current location hence the nagotiations.
no amount of cheerleading people into a new location if no one wants to go. I have'nt seem a vote on this topic have you?!?!
Pete "Frankly, Milt could move us in a long weekend"
Me:once again... you're on crack. I've worked on film sets made out of cardboard and crayons that take longer to put together let alone a long standing functional working club. Comment so obserd make be discount anything you have to suggest after a statement like that.
John "staying their under the rule of CPLLC is a worst case scenario"
Me: I don't know what they plan to do. Do you? I clearly believe that you don't have any idea.
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#105981 - 02/19/04 09:29 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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To Brian D. & Ace Two:
Guys - I am going to ask you to please consider not posting the type of material you do that reflects speculation and negative imagry on the AMA at the Magic Castle...the problems you perceive in the current embodiment of the BOD, the knowledge of the scheduling matters under effect at current times...these are operational concerns of the AMA and the embodiment thereof, and, really don't need public airing of laundry. If you gentlemen truly support the AMA (and that piece of structural lumber that represents our current clubhouse), then, please, keep the matters inhouse. If you are members of the AMA, then, the Magic Castle Forums are the place for such discussions, not here on a general public access. Your words do more to negate the wonders that the AMA has done over the last 40 years than any thing else imaginable. Please, think about what you are doing. If it is fact you honor the organization and what it represents, then, do so without continuing to speculate and drag the image further through the mud.
Respectfully -
Kd
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#105982 - 02/19/04 11:25 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Dustin Stinett
Dark Fascist Overlord
Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 6557
Loc: Southern California
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Originally posted by Brian D:
John "$10K each- From 3500 hundred paying members, I can’t see that being a problem"
Me:what are you smoking John..
Originally posted by John Scanlan:
How about selling 100 life memberships at $10K each? From 3500 hundred paying members, I can’t see that being a problem.
Originally posted by Brian D:
Pete "Frankly, Milt could move us in a long weekend"
Me:once again... you're on crack. I've worked on film sets made out of cardboard and crayons that take longer to put together let alone a long standing functional working club. Comment so obserd make be discount anything you have to suggest after a statement like that.
I only drink an occasional Merlot, so I’m fairly certain that my faculties are clear.
Dustin
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#105983 - 02/20/04 12:17 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Richard Kaufman
The Chief Genii
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 12975
Loc: Washington DC
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Kym Diamond is not the one who makes decisions about what is and is not appropriate to post here on the Genii Forum. I hope all interested parties and members will continue to post their thoughts here. Restricting this discussion to the Magic Castle Forum is problematic because only members can access that discussion. There are many many magicians who've visited the Magic Castle numerous times who have a deep interest in what's happening. Keeping them out of the discussion seems wrong to me.
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#105985 - 02/20/04 09:21 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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please separate my comments about the BOD from the AMA. I have a deep respect for the AMA and the current location with it's long standing track record of successes. I'm just not a fan of the current BOD.
I'm not yet a member of the AMA but will be when I know where they will be located when this cloud blows over. I live very close to the current location and if I was to pay for my membership now, the AMA my move to a location that is not as easy for me to visit (which currently is walking distance for me)
Regarding film sets..while you can build a house in a day (on a film set) I wouldn't trust that to hold up for very long being a facades. Even still those temp houses cost a small fortune for what is is.
I am very interested in the outcome as I know many are. I mean no disrespect. I'm just tired of hearing what sounds to be a one sided point of view that echoes "moving" as being the best solution. In fact these posters talk about it as if it's the **only** solution and should have already happen.
If this was true, then why hasn't it happened already. It's just cheer leading for a point a view that no one has voted on to reflect what people actually want. So to me it is just opinion especially since I hear from many other members what seem to be the other motives behind the current troubles.
I just want to represent the other point of view, that many of the people I've spoken to would be just as happy staying at the current location and addressing what they feel, is the real problem- "how the business is run by the BOD"
There are many options to correcting this problem. If folks here don't believe that this is the real issue here then they haven't really been involved in whats going on at the castle.
Trying to smoke and mirror the public in the thinking the AMA should move because secretly the **BOD** is incapable of dealing with the Glovers root problems won't help the organization. These problems would fallow us to a new location. These people seem to be very difficult to vote out of office.
Even I, as a non-member who attends the place regularly understand that for the most part, the place is not profiting for one reason and one reason only and it has nothing to do with size or location. On dead nights, I know that the hosts are very happy that they should be able to get any magician member in the place just so the few guest that show up will feel like they saw SOME magic to warrant the prices. Every club must be a business in some capacity. The business end just doesn't work. That is the only problem I have with the place and that is what I am debating.
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#105986 - 02/20/04 09:46 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Richard & Others - I am not trying to "Control" anything here - my Email was merely a request to take matters to another arena appropriate (in my eyes) for such discussions. I feel strongly that the matters of that which governs the Magic Castle should be kept to the Magic Castle and not tossed out for everyone to read or air...especially if the given desire is to support the AMA and see that organization advance into the future, generate new and supportive membership, and, continue to hold the stance in the community of magic.
Both the gentlemen in question had made statements that they supported and believed in the AMA. Then, they turned and went off like a dog on a fresh steak about the BOD and the other matters within that same organization. And, for more than one post.
So, I asked them to consider taking that discussion to a board that wasn't so public.
This is not dictating, controlling, or otherwise.
No, dictating and controlling is more like erasing posts that are not in popular mode with the owner of a board, or, imposing controls and demanding control of their personal words unto themselves.
I have not done either of those.
For the fact that my concern for my organization came across inappropriately to Mr. Kaufman and others, I apologize. Such was not my intent.
I will make the same request. As magicians,
we need to recognize the significance and importance of the AMA and what it is to our craft/art/profession and acknowledge that. It seemed that, as long as things were running without notice, no one really was much in public voice about the inner problems of poltics in the organization. The moment a serious matter imploded, however, the sharks were on the bleeding meat within moments, as those who are loudly vocal upon this matter seem.
Richard stated, "There are many many magicians who've visited the Magic Castle numerous times who have a deep interest in what's happening. Keeping them out of the discussion seems wrong to me. "
I am not asking them to stay out of the discussion. But, there is a point of respecting who you are within the membership of the AMA organization. Richard, would you stand for one of your employees or contributors to your magazine suddenly start airing dirty laundry about you the minute the general public found out there was a problem facing your daily operations? I don't think so. I believe you would want your TEAM to understand that you and they are facing a rather rough moment in time and it was important that the TEAM faced it together. This is how I feel about the AMA - we are a TEAM - and must stand together in this, not splinter and spread statements that are based upon speculation and rumor wildly on a public forum. If the people doing it are members, then, take those thoughts and views to the AMA/Magic CAstle forums and discuss them there - where better and informed responses can be found amongst the members and not dally the diapers for all to see.
And, Richard, your statement, "There are many many magicians who've visited the Magic Castle numerous times..." Yes - and, unless those magicians who have visited and loved the Academy Of Magical Arts - which is the force behind the show building of our clubhouse, 'The Magic Castle', are members of that organization, then, they really don't have the foundation of courtesty and respect to discuss the matters of that organization. Those magicians who visit are just that - visitors and guests. Not members. This is a situation that deals first with the members. Not the guests and visitors. If a person is that inspired by their visit and find the inner desire to take that experience to heart and be a part of it, then, join the Academy Of Magical Arts and be a functioning part. Then, work inside that organization to bring the change to the problems you see or matters you want to have considered for change. Otherwise, respect that organization for what it is and what it is now going through. That is my whole point on the issue.
As for the rest of your statement, Richard, "... Keeping them out of the discussion seems wrong to me. " I am not saying - keep them out of the discussion. In fact, I asked that the gents in question take that discussion to another board. (If they were members.) Nor should guests and visitors stay out...but, it is hoped that the respect for the AMA and what it has represented the last 40 plus years to the world of Magic as a whole would call for some dignity and respect amongst those who have been guests and visitors to the AMA clubhouse and enjoyed what the organization offered them.
Okay - that is all. Again, apologies if what I stated was not conveyed appropriately.
Kd
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#105987 - 02/20/04 09:55 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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“Brian” (or what ever your name is)
Great, now we have two Ministers of Misinformation on Genii.
For a person who is not a member of the AMA, you seem pretty darn sure about the “facts” and where everyone stands. It is of no doubt to me that you are hard wired to the CPLLC. Your style of debate is a familiar one. Your predilection to shoot down positive comment or ideas with invective remarks or attacks, and not with facts or reasoning, is a style of debate that points to a person who has no concern with facts or opinions of long time members of a club you are not even a member of. Your feeble attempt and hope is to pull us off the topic and then engage you in a mindless game of “your mother wears combat boots”. Yes, you have shown your colors “Brian”. Oh and I also enjoy the cleaver way you “misquote” me to again pull readers off the subject.
And YES I know as well as ANY rational person does who has read the interviews what the CPLLC has in mind and that scares the hell out of this member.
You ask “Do I have a one track mind on the subject?” GUILTY as charged and proud to be so.
As every member knows when Pete said, “Frankly, Milt could move us in a long weekend”, what he is saying in reality is that he could do it MUCH faster than anyone realizes. Brian, how have you become such an expert on the Magic Castle since Milt screwed in the first picture? How many hours of volunteer time have you put in? Have you been on any committees, have you served on the BOD? Oh, that’s right you are NOT a member. If you are such a fan of magic, how come you didn’t join years ago? I am sure you are proud of the fact your construction experience is that of cardboard and crayons. But I prefer to have my opinions based on members in the club who do this sort of thing for a living including the master builder Milt, to give me skilled answers.
But this thread is not about YOU or ME. It is about the future of MY club. A club I and countless others, have devoted thousands and thousands of volunteer hours to improve. To take an opinion seriously of someone who has NO CLUE of what has happened over the past 40 years or is happening up there right now is illogical. But, this is American and you do have the right to your unlearned opinion is no matter how ridiculous.
“(You said) I don't know what they plan to do. Do you? I clearly believe that you don't have any idea.” Well “Brian” you are wrong on BOTH points. Time will tell won’t it?
If you like to discuss this further, feel free to email me I won’t bore the rest with a flame war that you so desire to start. But I am sure you will have the desire to post another mindless uninformed attack on my poor deceased mother wearing her company boots.
In conclusion, you don’t reveal in your Bio your email address or your real name. You have “magician” down as your occupation. So I guess it would be fair to say, you for some reason or another don’t want to be known. Well than shame on me for debating with a person who does not have the fortitude to come forward and be recognized for what ever reason. Based on that sir, you have zero credibility. Especially when you admit you visit the club “frequently”. Thanks for your support!
John Scanlan
M-9872 Life
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#105988 - 02/20/04 10:08 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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BRIAN D: WRITES: I am very interested in the outcome as I know many are. I mean no disrespect. I'm just tired of hearing what sounds to be a one sided point of view that echoes "moving" as being the best solution. In fact these posters talk about it as if it's the **only** solution and should have already happen.
KD: Brian - moving isn't just a solution. It allows for more space and operation of matters at a given clubhouse for the AMA. And, yes, I do feel (in a personal way) that a relocation is a positive move. It is not the "overall answer" nor have I stated that. My posts will continue to reflect that there are problems within the AMA, and, those problems need to be attended to...BY THE AMA. But, the matter regarding the immediate situation - the CPLLC attempt to negotiate the clubhouse and control of that away from the AMA, is the one that must be attended to first - by the members of the AMA standing strong behind the current leadership and Milt Larsen. By those who respect the AMA not dragging rumors and speculations through an open arena - by which they strengthen the opposing embodiment of the CPLLC - and, strength based upon rumors and speculations is a false strength to use. Once the matter is resolved and the AMA is back unto itself, then, the other issues deserve attending to. It is the factor of the one large matter that takes precedence at this moment in time...and that we (AMA or AMA supposed supporters) should not lose sight of that issue and be confused with the other matters that run in similar streams.
BRIAN: If this was true, then why hasn't it happened already. It's just cheer leading for a point a view that no one has voted on to reflect what people actually want. So to me it is just opinion especially since I hear from many other members what seem to be the other motives behind the current troubles.
KD: Brian - the move is a factor that is also positively discussed amonfst people - just as the "other motives" you refer to are. It all depends on what you want to hear. And, unless you chose to option "ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUE" then draw a line between those, you cannot make a decision of your own. And, unless you are a member of the AMA and directly involved in this, that decision, or the point of views, sadly, really doesn't matter. Unless you are in a place to actively take part in what is happening - by being a voting member, by being a responsible part of the AMA, you are merely in the viewing stands waiting for the lions.
BRIAN: I just want to represent the other point of view, that many of the people I've spoken to would be just as happy staying at the current location and addressing what they feel, is the real problem- "how the business is run by the BOD"
KD: If you are the "vocal front" for others - the members of the AMA you claim to have spoken to...then, fine. But, a simple statement such as the one made is far more appropriate than dragging out the issues and points that may (or may not) be factual...within the operation of the BOD...and to drag that information as a torn carcass of an enemy behind you so all might see it.
Again, it is not something that the general public needs to be aware of. (Personal opinion, of course.) This is a matter of and for the AMA itself. And, the AMA is fully aware and responding to all matters that have been addressed here...and more.
BRIAN:
There are many options to correcting this problem. If folks here don't believe that this is the real issue here then they haven't really been involved in whats going on at the castle.
Trying to smoke and mirror the public in the thinking the AMA should move because secretly the **BOD** is incapable of dealing with the Glovers root problems won't help the organization. These problems would fallow us to a new location. These people seem to be very difficult to vote out of office.
KD: We have discussed this one. The AMA - Milt, and the appointed BOD members standing with Milt at the table with the CPLLC are very capable of handling what is going on. And, that includes "Dealing with the Glovers". The issue of moving is not one of ridding the political embodiment problems you seem to focus upon. The issue of moving is to allow the AMA the right and ability to operate its own clubhouse and not be delegated to a near-non-existing position. And,the move allows for expansion and improvements that the current physical boundaries of the current clubhouse do not allow. The problems travel with; the problems are dealt with by the members of the AMA after this matter of the CPLLC attempted take over is resolved. If you feel that people are hard to be replaced on a governing body, then, again, I challenge you to join the AMA now and become a functioning voice within the embodiment of our membership. Take the time to work for the structure you desire within the organization where those efforts will matter...not by shouting rumors and speculations into a crowded room filled with wind.
BRIAN: Even I, as a non-member who attends the place regularly understand that for the most part, the place is not profiting for one reason and one reason only and it has nothing to do with size or location. On dead nights, I know that the hosts are very happy that they should be able to get any magician member in the place just so the few guest that show up will feel like they saw SOME magic to warrant the prices. Every club must be a business in some capacity. The business end just doesn't work. That is the only problem I have with the place and that is what I am debating.
KD: And, if it were kept on a line that "well, it seems that the business end isn't working"...is fine. To drag into the fray the political problems and rumors of the actions and behaviors of the BOD, isn't. And, there are better ways to make the business end work. I think most everyone is in agreeance with that...up to and including a relocation move.
However, thanks for the clarification of your stance.
Respectfully - Kd
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#105989 - 02/20/04 11:18 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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it's nice to know that I'm only a couple hundred bucks away from validity.
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#105990 - 02/20/04 02:11 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Nice try "Brian"....But no cigar. You are still entitled to an opinion though. Nice chatting with you again
John Scanlan
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#105991 - 02/21/04 10:57 AM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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hscheie
Member
Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Long Beach, Ca
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For background I would like to briefly recount a true story.
I started a small bar and restaurant in the late 70’s, it was successful and my landlord told me he wasn’t going to renew my lease as he was going to remodel his three story bldg (I had the first floor) into a mega bar and restaurant. At the time I had virtually no money and I put every dime I had into moving to, gutting and remodeling into the bar of my dreams an old decrepit waterbed store a few doors down. Even though I had no money left to pay them, all my old employees and customers pitched in to help in the construction of the new place. I hand roughed every piece of wood that went in the place while my girlfriend hand stitched all the upholstery for the chairs and booths. At the same time my old landlord was doing his three story palace complete with a brand new glass elevator. When we reopened after 4 months (with almost all of my old wonderful employees) I started out by restricting access, because of that I had lines to get in almost a block long. When the old landlord opened (with new but rather impersonal employees) my lines went right by his front door and virtually no one went in his. The landlord went out of business in a year, everything (including the elevator) was auctioned off and the building was torn down.
A year later a fellow asked if I was interested in selling and I told him I wasn’t, he then asked how much I would take and I gave him a figure two times what I thought it was worth to shut him up. He than said I’ll give you 50% down if you carry the rest and that was too good to pass so I sold.
The buyer had made a few million by owning a few Country Kitchen franchises and he also bought bar restaurants in Vail and Las Vegas at the same time, what he didn’t realize was that all these businesses were individual and had personalities that needed to be carefully nurtured and allowed to naturally evolve and that was the key to their success, things you can’t get from a franchise operation manual. I was later asked many times by other companies to consult on both design and concept matters.
Even though I very carefully explained the reasons for my success considering there were over 15 other bars within 3 blocks, he paid no attention, the employees all left within two months and I repossessed the bar within a year and a half. The other two operations were also broke and closed within two years and the buyer lost everything.
I then resold the bar to a person who understood the concept and it’s still doing well today.
What’s happening to the Castle seems like Deja Vu to me, because that’s just what I think will happen to the LLC.
In my opinion they are trying to steal a going concept from it’s creator and bleed it for personal gain.
I saw a marketing plan that would put money in the pocket of the proposer but would have cost the Castle money.
Some of the benefits of this corporate membership (as I was told) would have been a free séance, free parking, preferred show seating, and pre-reserved dining tables.
If you sold 300 of these that’s almost a years worth of séances for free leaving the other séances to break even against the free ones.
In my 20+ years as a member I don't recall one other instance of a committee member proposing something that would would profit him/her (let alone at all) before the Castle.
The only reason people (and many celebs) want to go to the Castle is because of the magicians who hang out there, they feel that they are allowed a partial admittance to “Hogwarts” to mingle with the wizards. That’s why Wizards and Magic Island failed.
As soon as there are classes of membership conditional on your bank balance which have more percs than a magician membership that’s when it’s all over. If the magicians don’t hang out there it will be dead within two years.
In my opinion all the talk about marketing plans and mission statements is just so much wiffle dust being blown out of collective rear ends in order to obscure a real agenda of ego and personal profit, the advancement and betterment of the art of magic be damned!
At the very least I would like to see complete financials from all the LLC members showing just how successful they have been in public hospitality businesses using their own money, not someone else’s.
Hal
_________________________
Hal Scheie
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#105992 - 02/21/04 03:51 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Pete Biro
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Hollyweird
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Mr. Brian D, whoever you are...
Actually Milt could open a New Magic Castle in a few hours.
I didn't say all the decor would be in place.
One location I have looked at being considered "IF" it winds up that the Club has to move would be open, up and running as fast as it would take to light the stoves in the kitchen.
It already has a functioning theater/stage, etc. Really "cool" and "perfect" rooms for close up, hangin' around, dining, whatever.
Then, after settling in, the various things, like Irma, the bar decore, etc. etc. could be moved in and set up as Milt feels they are needed.
And no "I'm not only not on crack, I have never used anything even like snuff... so keep that kind of BS to yourself."
_________________________
Stay tooned.
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#105993 - 02/21/04 04:01 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yes, but it's not the Historical Landmark "The Magic Castle" it's an athletic club.
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#105995 - 02/21/04 04:54 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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BM Said "Yes, but it's not the Historical Landmark "The Magic Castle"
If the decision is to move it will not be The Magic Castle either...
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#105996 - 02/21/04 05:26 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Sales Magic wrote: "Yes, but it's not the Historical Landmark "The Magic Castle" it's an athletic club."
KD: Well, no one said where the location was, so, placing a name like that on it is merely speculation.
And, the historical landmark isn't the building that is associated with the "Magic Castle". The "Magic Castle" is merely the name of the clubhouse inhabited by the Academy of Magical Arts. And, that could be anywhere. What "IS" the "Magic Castle" is what the AMA brings to it and creates inside of it. And that setting of wonder and amazement can be anywhere, anyplace, anytime. Wherever we (the AMA) decide to hang our respective cloaks and hats, that will be the "Magic Castle", that will be our clubhouse home.
By the way, in reference to the "athletic club" - have you looked at their webpage? Found out what that site really is? You might be surprised. And there is a pretty darn rich tradition of Hollywood and the entertainment business associated with it as well. Of course, the same can be said for countless buildings and sites in the area that Milt is looking at...each with a unique personality that is developable into something truly amazing for the AMA's next "Magic Castle" clubhouse home.
Kd
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#105997 - 02/21/04 09:19 PM
Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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great so when are we moving? I'm all for it now, you've convinced me. Sound like a great plan! Let do it! How about this coming weekend!
Oh wait...
Whats the hold up?
who knows...
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