Attention Magic Castle Members

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#106000 - 02/22/04 08:41 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Kym, For the record, I am not a lawyer. Most of my clients are. The Historic Landmark status bestowed on the Castle some number of years ago, was not given to the Lane Mansion, or that building at 7001 Franklin. It belongs to "The Magic Castle". This presents a potential problem for all of us. The prevailing legal opinion is this: Even if all parties involved want to change the name on the landmark, it is for all intents and purposes impossible to change that name, even if trademarked. We could find no precedent or case law about this, and could find no instance where the name of any landmark had been changed. That is part of the protection granted by "Historic Landmark" status. Will you be at the meeting today? Michael
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#106001 - 02/22/04 09:18 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	A Reply to Pete & Bob... When focusing on the "Brand Name", in this case, "Magic Castle", that is only the name of the clubhouse. The membership makes the clubhouse. It is the membership that brought that clubhouse into life, it is the membership that can re-locate that clubhouse and still retain that spirit and life of their surroundings. So, even though the "brand name" defines the clubhouse, it is not the most important element of the old house on Glover Hill. That one most important element in that house is the ACADEMY OF MAGICAL ARTS - and that is the "brand name" that created and continues to create the experience known as, "The Magic Castle"...wherever that clubhouse is. The name recognition is one of the factors that creates stress in this takeover by CPLLC...it seems (from what I have read)that they are counting on being able to bankroll the known name and set location to their own profit. There is strong debate over the name, and, the best answer I have read and believe is that Milt Larsen owns the clubhouse name and all associated named effects. Therefore, the name of the clubhouse will remain no matter where the AMA relocates. That "Magic Castle" brand of entertainment and dining experience is the result of the work and effort of the Academy of Magical Arts. To claim it will only reside in one building in one location in one sight is errant in philosophy. How many times has the OSCAR ceremony, the ACADEMY AWARDS, relocated? That is always the same, yet always growing, changing, and developing with the times. From auditorium to auditorium to theatre...yet, still there. I again use the matter of Madison Square Gardens...which has re-located in New York from one place to another...yet, still is the recognized name of major events held in Manhattan... No. It does not matter where the Academy Of Magical Arts eventually places a new clubhouse home. It is a lot like Aristotle's Theory of Change. You know, you burn a log, you get ash. Sure, the log is gone, replaced by ash. But, the essence of log...what was that log and will always be that log, remains. The clubhouse move and relocation is like that. Sure...the old building is gone. But, the essence of what the AMA created as our clubhouse, "Magic Castle", remains. And it is that essence that we take with us wherever we go to build upon for future generations. All that is left of the old building on the hill is that..an old worn out house on the hill. The experience - that of going to a unique setting in which amazing entertainments happen...in which the hallways twist and wind through hidden rooms and wonders of magic...that can be anywhere. It is exciting to conceive what hew wonders can be wrought by relocation to a new setting based upon the designs of the past, not trying to hold onto those memories as the written law of what must be. The experience is created by the individual going to the event, not the event existing around the individual. And, that experience is created by countless people working to provide a moment that creates wonder and entertains. This is much like when a theme park (let us say, Disneyland) decides to remove an older attraction to make way for a new experience. There is outrage from those who grew up with that old attraction. There are calls that the new managment is destroying the park. There are the nay-sayers who believe it will never work. You know something, it tends to work. People find they enjoy the new experience as much as they did the old, and, before long, that new experience becomes a recognized and expected part of the embodiment of the time spent at that given theme park. Museums move and re-locate. For example, the Getty. The old villa by the sea was gorgeous. The new location, however, allows for greater display and guest interaction with the art they offer. People were uncertain about that at first...now, the Getty on the hill is a part of accepted reality. And, it didn't take long to do that, either. So, apply that to the reality of the AMA and our clubhouse of the "Magic Castle". What makes us unique is who we are, not what we are. And, the uniqueness of what we stand to offer is (just now)limited by the space confinements of an old house on a hill that some blankity-blank corporation thinks they can milk money out of due to the history of the organization that has used that house for over 40 years. That organization (the AMA) relocates to another location that offers better space and usage - not only for members and entertainers, but, for public traffic flow as well. There is now space for more of Milt Larsen's remarkable collection of variety art antiquities and the like. There is the space to open a functioning museum of magic that can be enjoyed by the public and the members, there is the space to open a restaurant during day hours (to draw in the Hollywood public and tourists) as well as the private club for magicians experience at night, there is the space to really build a professional stage that is equipped to handle the new wave of entertainers - Franz Harary and others who are doing major production illusion shows that cannot fit our current setting or stages, the space to build a better closeup gallery that can handle at least double per setting what we do now..., the space to re-create the memorable gags and gimmicks that are currently associated with the AMA clubhouse on Glover Hill, not to mention build countless new ones for our members and guests to explore and enjoy.... That is the reality which can and should be perceived...not the confining locking of a victorian manor's door as what must be given as our clubhouse. It is the membership and what we are capable of creating for the future that makes our clubhouse experience and unique. It is that growth into the new century of magic before us that will keep our "brand name" recognizable as the leading organization and related clubhouse for magic. The only gamble I perceive is that of staying tied to the past and not welcoming the future in which to grow. We...magicians...are highly creative people, imagining new wonders and delights to place into our performances and shows. Yet, it seems that we are reluctant to allow that same creativity and imagination to be applied to creating a better clubhouse for the 21st century. We have to be willing to let go of the constraints that bind us...to take the best of what was and then from that foundation expand and grow. Otherwise, we will only fall inward upon ourself in entropic spirals. So - what is marketable? An old house on a hill, or, the organization that fills it. I say that it is the organization, not the house. It is what that organization will do with the space it can fill and expand into in order to offer new generations of visitors, as well as the old family and friends who always return for more, as an entertainment experience to interface with or behold. That experience is marketable wherever the creative power behind it goes. And so it is with the Academy Of Magical Arts and their clubhouse, a clubhouse known as, "The Magic Castle." Thanks for letting me ramble - Kd
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#106002 - 02/22/04 09:29 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Kym, So I guess you have chosen to respond to my posts but not to me? FYI, A few years ago, the AMA BOD asked members of the AMA to start a non profit (501c3) foundation separate from the AMA. There were various reasons for this, but with the AMA's permission and at their direction the Academy of Magical Arts Educational Foundation was formed. Check out AMAEF.com Will there be 2 Magic Castles and 2 AMA's in Hollywood? Time will tell. Michael
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#106003 - 02/22/04 09:39 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	SalesMagic/Michael wrote: " KD: Okay, I am going to look for that stated marker the next time I go to the clubhouse. I am not aware of it being there, again, this is a matter I am not aware of. I am not doubting your words here, just that I was not aware of said marker or designation. SM/Michael: "This presents a potential problem for all of us.The prevailing legal opinion is this: Even if all parties involved want to change the name on the landmark, it is for all intents and purposes impossible to change that name, even if trademarked. We could find no precedent or case law about this, and could find no instance where the name of any landmark had been changed. That is part of the protection granted by "Historic Landmark" status." KD: There is no problem with that. All the marker has to do is state, "This was the site of the Academy of Magical Arts clubhouse, the Magic Castle". I see no problem with that. All you are moving is the name of an organization's clubhouse. A historical landmark can remain. I mean, there are rollercoasters at various amusement parks that are "historic landmarks". Some have been torn down. Yet, there is a marker on that spot stating where that specific coaster stood. Recognizing the place where something was and grew from is good. Forcing it to always remain there is not. I mean, if the log cabin that Lincoln had been born in had retained Abraham all of his life, well, it would have just been another log cabin. Only by Abraham's moving out and onward into better things did he receive the recognition and fame (no matter how tragic and end) that allows us to recognize the cabin he was born in, or, perhaps, the site upon which that cabin once stood, as having historic importance. The Historic Landmark status bestowed on the Castle some number of years ago, was not given to the Lane Mansion, or that building at 7001 Franklin. It belongs to "The Magic Castle"." Sure - the site has historic importance, but it doesn't mean we have to remain there for that. The site of the first Academy Awards at the Roosevelt Hotel is equally historically important, but the Academy dang sure outgrew that and re-located, didn't they! Still, the marker remains allowing people to know where something started. So, I have no problem with some bronze or metal sign left on the ground stating "we were once here"...the time came we had to move on. $;\)$ And, Michael, if, as you state, "The Historic Landmark status bestowed on the Castle some number of years ago, was not given to the Lane Mansion, or that building at 7001 Franklin. It belongs to "The Magic Castle"." ...well, if THE MAGIC CASTLE doesn't belong to the Lane Mansion, nor the building on the property, then, the "Historical Landmark Status" belongs to our Academy of Magical Arts, with a clubhouse recognized as "Magic Castle", then, we don't even have to leave a marker in the ground, just take it with us...and we are still the recognized historical landmark organization with the Magic Castle as our clubhouse. I still see no problem. The name and status is ours...and no one elses. Just a thought before coffee... Kd
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#106004 - 02/22/04 10:53 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Kym, With all earned respect for your opinion, I will place my eggs in the basket of practicing attorneys' opinions. Many of us hope to meet you in person today. I am sorry if I insulted you with the question. With the enormous support that you have pledged to the AMA and the fact that the meeting has been on calendar since last year, and the CPLLC issue on the table for 6 weeks, I have no doubt that you will put your money where your mouth is and attend to show your overwhelming support for the AMA.
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#106005 - 02/22/04 11:10 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Michael - thanks for the apology, although you didn't insult me. It takes a lot to do that. $;\)$ I thought we were merely discussing matters. Am I going today? Yes. Even now I am waiting for the ride to pick me up for this meeting. All the best - Kym
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#106006 - 02/22/04 11:13 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Michael wrote: "Kym,So I guess you have chosen to respond to my posts but not to me?" Sorry about that - it might have seemed that way - I respond to the posts each time I reboot the page...or something like that - had to grab some grub between my soapboxxes... $;\)$ That is why I missed your response and such. Apologies. Kd
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#106007 - 02/22/04 11:56 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	Y'know, Milt could move down the street and take a floor in the Holiday Inn, build it, decorate it, etc. etc. and I would be just as happy, as long as Milt and the AMA was running the place. My second favorite Magic Gathering place is in a barber shop. It's the PEOPLE. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106008 - 02/22/04 12:59 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	(MF)A few years ago, the AMA BOD asked members of the AMA to start a non profit (501c3) foundation separate from the AMA. (ME) Not true Mr. Minister of Misinformation. How do I know? I was the chair of that committee. "I" formed the committee and selected the members. One day at an unofficial "chat" with Dale about forming a 501(c)(3),I told him I would select some folks to help me and we would present him with a blow by blow report on how this COULD come about. He suggested I contact Zimmerman to be on the committee. I was only too glad to have her. 45 days later when we presented it to the BOD, they were "shocked" we had actually formed the Foundation. We had no ones permission on the BOD to do that, but we didn't need permission anyway. I sat in on a couple of meetings of AMAEF and because of the Tony lawsuit, I elected not to be a trustee of the AMAEF. The other member, Barry Allen resigned because of "issues" with Zimmerman, Reveen, and Mr. Peterson. After the AMAEF was formed,and I left, I have no clue what kind of a relationship they had with the AMA. Other than the CBS library thing, and a failed Casino Night (I believe)I don't know what they been doing the past X number of years. John Scanlan
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#106009 - 02/22/04 04:43 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Hello. It has taken most of the day to read through this post. Lots of passion here. I'm very interested in what is happening because I plan to be a member of the AMA, when I can afford it. The short time that I have visited the Castle has been very fun for me. I've had the pleasure of meeting some really helpful magicians and even though I'm a noob, I've even had the thrill of performing for a small group of guests each Tuesday. I really hope this all works out for the best and everyone works together and picks a side. For me, backing up Milt and the AMA which, for no other reason has created one of the coolest and friendliest places to be on the planet for me! I'm going for the membership no matter where the AMA ends up. I work at a game company and my boss brought all 45 people to the Castle one night. I wasn’t able to go then... but I had the pleasure of being invited by the school and ran into Magic Dave who happens to work next to me 30 miles away from the Castle. Small world. I've found that most magicians that I've come to know have been some of the most helpful people I've ever met, Dave being one of them. He's been entertianing people for seven year in the Castle and for no pay. Hard to find people like that these days. I've been troubled by the things that have been happening, it's a shame that the tension is so high. I understand this knowing what the stakes and all but, being an outsider, I'm not swayed from Joining the AMA for whatever rumors I've heard, and I have heard some. I also asked many of my friends, who went for the first time, that if the castle moved would they care where it was? They said of course not. Why? Because of the people, the magic, the entertainment value, the atmosphere, the experience. They all had different reasons why, but the location had nothing to do with it, plain and simple. The building, while a beautiful structure, really isn't much to look at until you walk inside and see the history of the place. All of which I'm sure, could be taken down and moved. It's not like the Chinese theater where the outside facade is so recognizable that people would be upset if was destroyed. Granted, I think it would be different being in a building that was on one floor. I think you'd lose the fun you have of exploring the twists and turns that make the castle a unique location. I think you need a little bit of that "fun house" feel to call it the Magic Castle otherwise, you're missing the expectations of a lot of people who go there just to expore it and happen apon a magician who will dazzle them with something unexpected. Since everyone here seems to be in favor of moving, and you've had lots of people come forward pitching in to help as you claim, IF it happens, let me throw this on the table for you. I do 3D artwork or a living. I've worked for Disney, Dreamworks, Microsoft, Foundation-Imaging, and have scored music for Stan Winston. I'd be happy to Design, in 3D, a fly through with the various parties involved to create a NEW castle. I've done rides, games, TV shows, and films over the last 11 years and have been recognized as a 3D vet in the industry. There is nothing more valuable in selling an idea then having a pre-visual to get money and excitement behind a project. That's what Disney did many years back. So who do I call? I owe this much to the people I've come to know and respect. Wherever the AMA go, you can count me in to that! I've siad my peace, off to dinner. -Joel Payne Magician
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#106010 - 02/22/04 06:07 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	I just finished viewing the Webcast of the general meeting. I was appalled when BOD member Lew Horowitz ruled against an open and honest discussion of the CPLLC issues. The membership was clearly in favor of an open discussion, but Mr. Horowitz nixed it. "No, no, no, no, no, no," Mr. Horowitz said, and then added a few more no's just for good measure. I have belonged to several associations in my time (I have had a couple of careers), and I have never run into such a lack of openness. Why not allow Diana Zimmerman to give her side of the story? Why not answer questions? Why not provide enough time for a full discussion? When I belonged to the 1,000-member American Society of Journalists and Authors, the newsletter was written almost entirely by the membership. Members' voices were heard. The general meetings were full of healthy debate. Certainly there was a tendency on the part of the ASJA Board of Directors to make decisions and be expedient, but they failed time after time. Certainly Mr. Horowitz, by his actions, has permanently lost my vote.
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#106011 - 02/22/04 06:39 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Oh, come one David... The BoD said that they could tell us any facts yet so what were people going to discuss? Whit's motion was, however, appropriate -- although from everything I could hear the BoD already was behind Milt. Plus, they still had to announce the election results and the room needed to be turned for the early show... They had to get the meeting over fairly soon. I have no problem with how Lew handled it at all! However, I can't wait for the special meeting when we WILL discuss it! Glenn
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#106012 - 02/22/04 06:39 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	I wouldn't blame Lew... blame two things. A need to get out of the room for the shows to start and NO ONE RUNNING THE MEETING THAT KNOWS ROBERTS RULES OF ORDER. I have mixed feelings about an open discussion when I believe the CPLLC are, in effect, trying to pull a "hostile" takeover... and the details really belong private, between the BOD and the landlords. To be honest, whatever Milt does I will back 100%, regardless of the BOD and/or CPLLC. Note: I had to leave and didn't get the ending. Who won/lost board seats? _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106013 - 02/22/04 06:40 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	In addition, to clarify me feelings. I don't want to hear ANYTHING the CPLLC has to say... I don't care for how they came into this and I don't care for what they seem to be about. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106014 - 02/22/04 06:53 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	I may not know much about anything... but Pete you say this is a "hostile" takeover. should'nt the members be a part of any discussion that effects the future of the clubs location being paying members of a non-profit organization. I don't know how these things go but I've been a part of many clubs larger then this, and we were at least informed of the "minutes" of the meetings. This being a non-profit organization, understanding that the members want answers, don't they have right to them, or at least a right to vote on it? If I was a member I guess I'd know how these things work in there... Just trying to understand how this organization fuctions. Help.
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#106015 - 02/22/04 09:11 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	You elect a board and have the faith in them to let them make the decisions. Right not their decision is to keep working on the details of the lease. And since, IMHO, a takeover attempt is part of it, I think they have to play close to the vest. It is my understanding negotiations are going on and all the messages, rumors, suggestions, etc. on various bbs's could weaken the hand (of Milt and the BOD). I trust them to make the decision, and when it is made they will tell us. If you don't like the makeup of the board, join the club and run for office. Get on a committee, get involved. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106016 - 02/23/04 01:51 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Glenn Tenney: ...the room needed to be turned for the early show... They had to get the meeting over fairly soon.... Everybody knew that this was going to be a contentious meeting. If they had wanted to discuss the issues in an open and honest way, they would have cancelled the early-afternoon shows for that day and started the meeting at 2 pm. You don't short-shrift the members of a club who have a burning desire to know what's going on--that is, unless you don't value them. Open and honest discussion should be the cornerstone of an organization such as this.
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#106017 - 02/23/04 02:09 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Glenn, While you may see Whit's motion as appropriate, it is noteworthy that it proceeded against advice of counsel. George Juarez, the AMA attorney advised Lew that the motion was not proper. Lew proceeded against counsel's advice. So as I see it, your dues and my dues pay Mr Juarez for his advice and at the general meeting, our treasurer disregards that advice which is being paid for with members' dues. Doesn't that bother anyone else?
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#106018 - 02/23/04 02:20 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Pete Biro said "You elect a board and have the faith in them to let them make the decisions." I couldn't agree more. As a member I want my vote to count. Now, when board members start to resign in the next week or 2 (maybe 3 or 4), I hope that I am not the only one to be PO'd that the BOD members chose or were co-oerced into resigning after the election instead of before. If the BOD was interested in making all members' votes count, BOD members would have resigned before the election, and let the members' votes determine the new board instead of some mysterious high level omnipotent powers high up in the AMA pulling strings.
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#106019 - 02/23/04 08:25 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by David Groves: Certainly Mr. Horowitz, by his actions, has permanently lost my vote. David, I would ask that you reconsider your thoughts. Lew was only doing what he was told. He was told that the meeting was not the Forum for that and Milt was standing shortly after that backing him completely. Lew is simply the messenger and you know the saying that goes along with that. I think it would have been fine if Zimmerman and the others had 5 minutes to have their say at the Castle...but since it was not allowed, no one is stopping her from posting her points here or on the Castle Forum. I sat only 2 rows in front of her and heard her saying "Lies, lies, lies..." as Lew gave the speach. Fine, Diana, here is your chance. What are the lies? Michael Flint chimes in plenty...is there something stopping you, Diana?
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#106020 - 02/23/04 08:32 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Salesmagic: Now, when board members start to resign in the next week or 2 (maybe 3 or 4), I hope that I am not the only one to be PO'd that the BOD members chose or were co-oerced into resigning after the election instead of before. Michael, If this is true (and it is not the first time I have heard it) I would also be upset. Because this 'is' the BOD that was elected (like 'em or not) by the 'members'. Why would you slap your members in the face like that? They might as well say, "Thanks for the ink and stamp you just wasted but we did not want the position anyway". I hope this is just a rumor.
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#106021 - 02/23/04 08:36 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Pete Biro: Note: I had to leave and didn't get the ending. Who won/lost board seats? Hi Pete, I would like to send out a great big CONGRATULATIONS to Lorenzo Clark as the winner of the seat for the BOD. All other seats remained the same. Kick some a**, Lorenzo! We love ya!
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#106022 - 02/23/04 09:38 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Salesmagic: While you may see Whit's motion as appropriate, it is noteworthy that it proceeded against advice of counsel. Since I am an out-of-town member I was only able to watch the meeting via the webcast (thanks to Ira and everyone who did that!!!!). What I heard was George saying that Whit's motion, which would not be binding but would just be a sense of the members, WAS appropriate. Sure, everyone wanted to know all the skinny and to discuss it at length -- last month, last week, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I wish that the BoD had told us what CP has been offering them, but they didn't. They said, and it seems quite reasonable, that they didn't because they are still negotiating and discussing things with CP. Considering that, what was there for us to discuss or to Q&A them? They couldn't respond to specific questions e.g. "did CP ask for..." or "why didn't you (the BoD) do ...". Instead, the BoD said that they're behind Milt (super!). I think that's all quite reasonable. I'm expecting the BoD to schedule a members' meeting specifically to discuss this at length once they can discuss it (and have CP present their views too). If, at that time, they don't allow such discussion and Q&A, then I'll be upset. For yesterday's meeting, I'm not upset (other than by the election results, but that's another matter...). Do I think the meeting could have been run more smoothly? Yep, but it was well within the range of ok. Glenn
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#106023 - 02/23/04 11:19 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Glenn Tenney: ...I'm expecting the BoD to schedule a members' meeting specifically to discuss this at length once they can discuss it (and have CP present their views too). Never gonna happen.
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#106024 - 02/23/04 11:36 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	David G. - I think, in this case, that a meeting will happen. Whether it is an open general meeting for the membership to attend (which is the best probable outcome) or, a netcast of the event (such as yesterday's general meeting) in a "Town Hall"style forum and debate presentation, the chances are - well, good. The BOD is quite aware of how deeply the emotions of the membership at large runs on this, and, that they do have a serious committment to the members to insure rapid communication of all matters in this arena. So, yeah, I forsee a general meeting - of some form - when the time arrives for the public dissemenation of appropriate knowledge. Kd
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#106025 - 02/23/04 11:48 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by David Groves: Quote: Originally posted by Glenn Tenney: ...I'm expecting the BoD to schedule a members' meeting specifically to discuss this at length once they can discuss it (and have CP present their views too). Never gonna happen. Lew said it would happen. Milt said it would happen. Why do you say it won't happen, David?
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#106026 - 02/23/04 12:22 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	I appreciate that there are people who think airing of dirty laundry is a bad idea. But I'm one who thinks that sunshine is a good thing. There is only one real tragedy that has already happened in all this....magicians abandoning respect for other magicians, even so far as publically attacking people for simply expressing opinions. Take, for example, Bob Busch. He viscerally detests Mark Suzuki, and why? Simply because he posts opinions with which he disagrees. He accuses him of all kinds of things, with nothing to support him. He will owe Mark a HUGE apology and drink when this is over. John, your passion and dedication is unquestioned, but deliberately insulting people just makes you look petty. We have people ask for CP to post information and respond to questions (basically asking them to go behind the backs of the AMA and Milt, who don't seem to see any need to have an ongoing educational process.....those of you upset by CP going behind the backs of Milt, is this what you really want to do? do you understand this, Mr. Ezell?), then, when they do, are personally attacked on a very personal level. This is not a very fair way to deal with people, I'd think. Remember that Milt is choosing to deal with these people....if your response is "I DON'T want to deal with these people", that means you are substituting your judgement for Milt's. You are no friend of Milt's, the Castle's, or the AMAs. To reiterate the reason why some people post here without revealing their identities: There is a real fear of retribution. I know a number of members who will not post their thoughts, because they feel they will be ostracized. Consider the case of an employee-member...kiss their job goodbye. Consider the case of a performing member...kiss being booked goodbye. One might consider that cowardly, but I consider cowardly attacking others, when there is no risk to the action. Look at the way that Whit posts, a person who is a gentleman. He may disagree stongly with a person, but he does not devolve into personal attacks. I hope we can all strive to maintain such decorum. After all, we will all be living together in the future, and I've never seen a percentage in generating enemies.
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#106027 - 02/23/04 01:11 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Hi Acetwo, Note taken. As you know me, I do not worry about being ostracized. I do speak freely, I do still perform and I do not hide my name. Respectfully. See ya around!
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#106028 - 02/23/04 01:45 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Fair enough Acetwo. I'll take the challenge. On the subject of retribution you said “Consider the case of an employee-member...kiss their job goodbye. Consider the case of a performing member...kiss being booked goodbye”. You have left me at a disadvantage as I don’t know who you are talking about. I am not saying it has never happen, I’m just saying I don’t know of a single instance. I could never be a proponent of anonymous postings. I’ve never seen a strong enough argument IN favor of doing that. Retribution is only another word for paranoia. I find it impossible to attach any credibility to anyone going the anonymous route. I believe it is fundamentally unethical and crowdedly (not name calling). When people debate, their position comes from their environment and experience. You take this into consideration when you know the other person. I probably know Mark S. or Brian D and even you. But as long as I don’t know who you are, than I must assume you are “up to something else.” I am highly suspicious of anything an anonymous poster may or has said. I spend a great deal of time reading between the lines, because I don’t know who they are. Others have posted negatives posts here and elsewhere. Because I know the person, I understood where he/she was coming from. Some of my very dear friends and everyday friends at the Castle, have very distorted and hateful opinions of the BOD. During the time I was on the BOD, a few would NOT even speak to me. When they did we got into shouting matches to the point hosts had to tell us to take it outside. Once off the BOD I was back to being “good old John”. I stand firm on my opinion that I find no innocent reason to being anonymous. John Scanlan magiccastle@cox.net 626-664-3597 If no answer, you will find me at Rose Hills, Garden of Eternity Life, Row 117 Plot 19
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#106029 - 02/23/04 04:06 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
chris morrison chris morrison Member Registered: 03/01/08 Posts: 7 Loc: los angeles	Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Ezell: Why would you slap your members in the face like that? Because this is what our leaders do best. They've been slapping us in the face for years and yet the 831 voting members continue to re-elect them. I guess some of us rather enjoy it. Trust me, the current situation isn't going to induce them to stop the slapping and replace it with open & honest communication. If you need proof please enjoy Lew's performance (again) at yesterday's meeting via the archived file on the Castle web site. When Diana offered to be honest with the members suddenly fear rang out in Lew's voice as he shouted "No" over & over again. Priceless. Trust me, these days our fearless leaders are anything but. If the rumors are true, I'll be looking forward to seeing some of them scatter & scamper for the nearest hole in the baseboard once the lights are finally switched on. Knowledge is power. cm _________________________ cm
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#106030 - 02/23/04 04:58 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	What rumors? _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106031 - 02/23/04 05:00 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	Y'know, the way things are going, I'd like to see CPLLC sign the lease, Milt and the BOD move and leave them with an old worn out building and try to figure out how to run a business there. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106032 - 02/23/04 05:13 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Ok, so I make a pact with Acetwo, and you guys TEST me with Morrison post...... NOT FAIR! John
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#106033 - 02/23/04 06:00 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Geno Munari Geno Munari Registered: 01/30/08 Posts: 84 Loc: Las Vegas	As a member and having worked at the Magic Castle the downside of this diatribe disturbs me. I openly and forwardly give my support to Milt Larsen. He and his wonderful brother Bill, built a one of a kind establishment that will never be recast. An as the story goes, the "cast has been broken". Unbelievable.
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#106034 - 02/23/04 08:42 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	Thanks for chiming in Geno... now it is wait and see. Frankly, at this point, I'd like to see the CPLLC sign a lease with the Glovers. Then Milt and the AMA move out leaving them an old, delapadated building who's memories and ghosts will follow the Larsen's wherever they wish to settle and start a new dream in a new and better location. Then let's see the CPLLC (don't you love that LLC... Limited Liability Corp... if they blow it they aren't liable) try to run a business. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106035 - 02/24/04 08:39 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
hscheie hscheie Member Registered: 02/23/08 Posts: 10 Loc: Long Beach, Ca	You know Pete, I just had an idea. Since a fair number of the CP business "experts" are from Vegas why don't they partner with a willing hotel (the Aladdin comes to mind) and open their own private magic club? After all with the built in base of magicians living in Vegas and their self professed expertise in running and promoting this type of venture it should be a natural. Oh, I forgot that would involve starting from scratch and building a business based on good will, fellowship and integrity not stealing an existing one. Hal _________________________ Hal Scheie
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#106036 - 02/24/04 08:41 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Chris Morrison: When Diana offered to be honest with the members suddenly fear rang out in Lew's voice as he shouted "No" over & over again. Priceless. [/QUOTE] Agreed, Chris. But as Pete Biro and myself have said here and on other Forums...Diana still has every opportunity to put her fingers onto a keyboard and relay whatever message she wishes. She says Lew was lying, fine. What are the lies? Speak up Diana. Everybody wants to hear or read. Diana? Diiaaannnaa?
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#106037 - 02/24/04 08:43 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Pete, I'm not sure I understand your point about a LLP. This is a very standard way of doing business. In fact, it shows business smarts. LLP's are a relatively new phenomenon. For example, the AMA is a regular corporation: (from the secretary of State webpage): Corporation THE ACADEMY OF MAGICAL ARTS Number: C0429264 Date Filed: 3/9/1962 Status: active Jurisdiction: California Mailing Address 7001 FRANKLIN AVE LOS ANGELES, CA 90028 Agent for Service of Process DALE HINDMAN 7252 YOLANDA AVE RESEDA, CA 91335 So.....what bad things to you have to say about the AMA, because they have legal protection?
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#106038 - 02/24/04 09:14 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	Guess I will have to check out the difference between a corporation and a limited liability corportation. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106039 - 02/24/04 11:25 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Salesmagic should really rely on facts when shooting off on a diatribe like this: "While you may see Whit's motion as appropriate, it is noteworthy that it proceeded against advice of counsel. George Juarez, the AMA attorney advised Lew that the motion was not proper. Lew proceeded against counsel's advice. So as I see it, your dues and my dues pay Mr Juarez for his advice and at the general meeting, our treasurer disregards that advice which is being paid for with members' dues. Doesn't that bother anyone else? " What bothers me is that your "facts" are wrong. In point of fact, Lew did NOT disregard the advice of the AMA attorney AT ALL. I was sitting three seats away from George, and what happened was Whit made a motion, George indicated to Lew that such a motion was inappropriate, then a member suggested that the motion could be made as an ADVISORY motion, with no binding effect. George then agreed that an ADVISORY motion COULD proceed. Lew then proceeded with the motion. Ask George if you don't believe me. The reason the discussion didn't happen is that the Member's Meeting (according to the By-Laws of this or any other non-profit club) is NOT an open forum for new business. It's only appropriate in a meeting designated as such to have open discussions. The reasons behind it are numerous, not to mention that such discussions are typically reserved for Members only, and there was no way to assure that was the case in an open meeting. Hot heads NEVER prevail. I think it's in the best interests of everyone involved that we work with facts, not heated speculation. This IS a public forum, and for parties on both sides of this argument, it's embarrassing to view comments so filled with vitriol and bile when few of us REALLY understand what's going on. As Max Maven so succinctly stated at the meeting, we all need to hear the facts before we respond. I, too am 100% behind Milt, and I hope that all of you are as well. Regards, Buzz Hays
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#106040 - 02/24/04 11:33 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	You trust CPLLC as much as I do, I see... $\:D$ _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106041 - 02/24/04 11:42 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Buzz, Thank you for clarifying to everyone that when Whit first made his motion, George Juarez advised that it was not appropriate. You have also accurately described the events that followed and I appreciate your recount of the process. As far as the opportunity to post here and/or the Castle forum, These forums don't hold a candle to a simulcast & archived webcast available to ALL AMA MEMBERS. We are looking for an avenue that will be available to all AMA members as well as all interested parties. The AMA chose not to let us have such a forum and until we have that level of opportunity to speak, or until we find that it will be in our best interest to do otherwise, we will continue our process. Michael Flint
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#106042 - 02/24/04 01:20 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Hal S: I am truly sorry that you feel as you do about Castle Partners. The fact is that Milt's lease expired in December 2000 (refer to Tom Glover's interview). Milt and the BOD had 2 and 1/2 years to work out a new lease before we approached the Glover's last summer. If Milt and the BOD had made this a priority, and negotiated a lease with the Glovers, we would not be here today. Simply stated, there would be no Castle Partners. Hal, even your Wisconsin Tavern would have worked out a lease with your landlord in less time than that. But, it didn't happen. Castle Partners is offering The AMA and Milt an opportunity for a long term lease, something they have not had in 3 years. The AMA has had 3 years to work out a deal with the Glovers and have had those same 3 years to move or at least plan to move (or even save money for a move). The AMA has chosen to stick their heads in the sand and hope things would change. Things have changed and at this time, CP wants Milt and the AMA to stay. And I am sure that most smart people would bet that CP has a contingency plan to successfully handle whatever may happen in the future. Hal, in today's business climate (and like it or not, we are operating in today's business climate), any landlord can make any request of a tenant at lease renewal time. The AMA has had 3 years to satisfy the Glovers' and get a lease. If the AMA saw the last 3 years without a lease as being a problem, wasn't 3 years long enough for any successful business to solve that problem? Hal, what is the longest period of time that your tavern operated without a long term lease? Michael Flint
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#106043 - 02/24/04 01:23 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Personally, I have been waiting to see the '03 financials. They are quite complicated. I was wondering if any of you would like to take a stab at hypothetically adjusting them for the following scenario? If all dues and initiation revenue remained the same, and all costs involved with food, beverage & entertainment were paid by someone other than the AMA, and there was no food/bev/entertainment revenue,how much money would have been left over as profit? One could assume that the AMA payroll could be reduced to the cost of a couple of administrative people, and the newsletter would still have to be produced and mailed. The rent should be factored in last so that when we (CP) are able to go public with the actual (significantly reduced) number it will be an easy adjustment. Truthfully, we have our own numbers, but posting them here would only bring accusations of bias, and truthfully, we are biased, probably just not in the ways that you may think. So, are any of you willing to act like an accountant and arrive at a potential profit that may be compared to the actual 2003 profit of $104K? I realize it is likely that there will be diverse opinions (including those who will vehemently oppose this exercise), but if you want to look forward into 2004, wouldn't it be helpful if the members could look at the future using this hypothetical scenario? You all want to know what CPLLC is thinking, and this is an example of how we are looking forward.
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#106044 - 02/24/04 10:59 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Buzz Hays: ... The reason the discussion didn't happen is that the Member's Meeting (according to the By-Laws of this or any other non-profit club) is NOT an open forum for new business.... This is absurd. What happened was this: An advisory resolution was proposed to support Milt whatever his decision was. Lew allowed discussion as long as it supported his view, but the moment a dissenting opinion surfaced, he disallowed it. Diana requested to speak directly to the question at hand; this was not "new business." What is more appalling than passing a resolution on which discussion is allowed on only one side of the question? Shameful, shameful. I haven't made up my mind about CP, but I would at least like to hear both sides.
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#106045 - 02/24/04 11:55 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Mike Flint writes (as SalesMagic):"Buzz,Thank you for clarifying to everyone that when Whit first made his motion, George Juarez advised that it was not appropriate. You have also accurately described the events that followed and I appreciate your recount of the process. KD: Mike, that wound up being an object of wording clarification. It was revised in quick process of the meeting (you were there, y'know) and the lawyer had no problem in allowing that it was not a problem to go into action once reworded. The first attempt at wording was not appropriate, the second attempt was. MIKE: "As far as the opportunity to post here and/or the Castle forum, These forums don't hold a candle to a simulcast & archived webcast available to ALL AMA MEMBERS." KD: Ohmigawsh...so you don't have a camera and a live feed to cast, you don't have a server to archive. Big Deal. That is an "icing on the cake, Mike. You have ample space and readership in both the forums here and in the Castle Forums (if you would so desire) to present your views. The people who access those internet sites to watch internet video feed are the same ones who access those sites to read forums and posts. And, you know dang well that with the volatile situation we are in around this that people will tell other people, the curiousity will build, and they will come to the available website to check yer message out. MIKE: "We are looking for an avenue that will be available to all AMA members as well as all interested parties." KD: Hello - you are talking in the forum here to folks who seem interested enough, as well as those of us who read your writings on the Castle boards as well. You have an avenue. Are you really wanting to use it? Or, do you wish to continue to find ways to circumnavigate the issue and not tell anyone anything? Now, the best thing to do is to respect the "wait and let things take their proper course of events betwixt CPLLC, the AMA BOD, and, Milt Larsen - to allow business transactions to transpire and not become tainted with the mud we are wallowing in. OF course, the CPLLC will still be in the back of the room wanting their five minutes to present things...and keep the division of interests stirred up...and again effectively seperating what should be a united body of the AMA behind their leadership; Milt Larsen first and then the BOD. MIKE: "The AMA chose not to let us have such a forum and until we have that level of opportunity to speak, or until we find that it will be in our best interest to do otherwise, we will continue our process." KD: I felt you should have been allowed the right to present your situation. I think had proper rules of order been followed, in that you presented your desire to the board prior to the meeting, it may have happened so. I also feel that your group sitting in the back talking loud enough to be heard with statements that would draw attention to you and your group was not a matter needed in that situation. It was obvious that Milt and the AMA BOD had asked folks to be patient and allow the proper course of events to transpire. They (Milt and BOD) know this is furstrating to the membership and people out there, but, it was hoped to avoid further mud-riddled speculation. If you and your organization truly respected the AMA and the situation as you so speak, you would have nodded in agreement and not said a thing at that point. Instead, the back row was filled with mutterings loud enough to disrupt everyone around your arena. Mike - you have that level of opportunity to speak every day. You have been asked to repeatedly both here and at the Magic Castle forum sites. You have been easily directed to setting up your own website (and, a group with such worthy and established people as the CPLLC coud easily do so)...the opportunity is there. Man, it is smack dab in front of you, and, were it a snake, it would have bitten you. You claim it in your best interest not to say anything...as your desires so align you to "your process"....Mike - the only process I can see you doing is to continue to point the finger and churn the problems and factors that the AMA has, or, the fact you weren't allowed to fairly speak, or other such matters of that ilk. These are easily perceivable as moves to divide the embodiment of the AMA which now must stand united behind Milt. And, that desire to stand united was readily shown at the meeting. There is a lot more I want to say on this, but, out of respect for you and for the situation, I cannot. Respectfully - Kd
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#106046 - 02/25/04 12:21 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Mike you, indicated (I believe) Castle Partners has no way to communicate with the membership. That is not true Mike. Castle Partners could set up at any large venue in LA. Take ads out in the various magic magazines and postings on the internet that a meeting was being held by Castle Partners. You could run a video feed to ANY web site. If a moron such as I can figure out how to do it, than you guys can. This is NOT brain surgery. John
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#106047 - 02/25/04 12:33 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	To David Groves... David, you post: "...An advisory resolution was proposed to support Milt whatever his decision was. Lew allowed discussion as long as it supported his view, but the moment a dissenting opinion surfaced, he disallowed it." KD: Not quite what I saw. There was a large emotional fire going in that room. I don' think anyone can deny that. The meeting was trapped in a serious constraint of time on the space alloted to hold it in...the theatre had to be turned back to the house in time for the guests to enjoy the evening entertainments. The "discussion" allowed seemed to focus on that re-wording of the statement, which quickly passed the muster and was eventually put to the vote. There was much confusion and disorder on the floor, a matter that should not have gone so far...and the only truth is that emotions were carrying that moment aloft as the membership attempted to show support for Milt. During this, Ms. Zimmerman and Co. were at the back of the room muttering and carrying on loudly enough to create a public disturbance to draw attention to their order. The entire matter had descended to a level of social chaos in quick order. I feel that Lew was trying to re-orient the meeting into a form of decorum more than anything else at all. Had the CPLLC party respected the general request to accept the fact that things are progressing and that waiting until matters were worked through in order to better resolve information dissemenation to everyone, the donnybrook would probably never have escalated as it did. And, had the CPLLC waited until after the vote was called and tallied to stand up and ask for a few brief minutes to discuss their point, I feel that, perhaps, it would have been granted in a much calmer instance. DAVID: Diana requested to speak directly to the question at hand; this was not "new business." KD: She requested after having sat at the back of the house and made comments and statements throughout the meeting to allow everyone around her and the CPLLC contingency to know that they disagreed with what was being said. In most business meetings I have seen, that type of behavior would have been requested (first) to be stopped, and, if continued, the party would have been escorted from the floor. The AMA was very accepting and allowed them to remain, even when creating a low upheaval of constant disorder. Do I think that the CPLLC deserved the five minutes of fame in order to present their views? Absolutely. Is that really what they wanted to do? I do not know. The ability to create the "low upheaval of disorder" seems to run rampant in their posts which direct statements at the AMA and claim they have answers, but, they NEVER present those answers...they have a constant apparent pattern of trying to distract attention away from solidarity of the membership of the AMA and support for Milt and the BOD over many posts here and on the Castle Forum boards... And yet we graciously allow them to continue to do so out of some aspect of respect for resolving this thing. DAVID: What is more appalling than passing a resolution on which discussion is allowed on only one side of the question? KD: David, the only "real" discussion that seemed to transpire around the resolution was on how to word it. That wording has nothing to do with the matter of hearing from the CPLLC. When the CPLLC stuck their voice into the soup, that was when matters blew. The AMA embodiment of members wanted to vote in order to show their support for Milt Larsen. The CPLLC jumped in and put a wedge that spun a tornado soup. Milt even stood up and stated that he didn't need the resolution to be aware of our support...and to let things pass. Damn astute, Milt is. I respected him even more. But, the members wanted the Board to really be aware of their feelings and support for Milt. That was the heat of the passion around that. The CPLLC merely opened a can of worms to add into the confusion...a can that was not of direct business order to the meeting at hand, and, a can that had been stated would remain sealed by both sides of the divided parties until further discussion and decisions could be obtained. The only dissention I see by the move from the CPLLC was against the unification of the members of the AMA to support Milt. Not, as it seems, to hear their side of the story. There have been, are, and will be, ample forums and places for that presentation to be made. It has been repeatedly called for from the AMA members and others as well before this meeting, it is still being called for now. And, all the CPLLC does is stand outside and state that "they have the answers, but they aren't going to tell." Even if they had of received the five minutes...would those answers have been real...or words to further confuse matters and continue to upset and sour the business transaction deal that was transpiring between the CPLLC, the AMA BOD, and, Milt Larsen? The best thing to do in this is to do exactly what was requested of us at the meeting...WAIT. Yes, it is frustrating. No, we do not have all the information. Be patient. Stay united behind Milt. Wait. That was the message to the AMA members. It was the CPLLC that tried to disrupt that directive and missive from Milt to us. It is the CPLLC that continues to strive and break that solidarity we so deeply need as an organization right now. It seems that anything will be done to keep our view in a chaotic state. David, I agree that we should publicly know all sides of the equation. But, in the case of the meeting that recently passed, the CPLLC were there representing themselves as an organization, not as the members of the AMA they came into the room as in order to be there. They did not respect the request to wait and be patient. They did not honor Milt and the AMA BOD by their actions at the back of the room. And, yes, it was an emotionally charged atmosphere that the situation exploded into. They were not there to be a part of the AMA. They were there to have a show of force for the CPLLC. And, even though they might be card carrying members of the AMA, they were not actually there to take an AMA member's part in that meeting. Shameful, yes. And, some on both sides of the issue. Again, let us return to the sidelines and wait. Let us show the solidarity for Milt Larsen and the AMA. Let us respect what the governing BOD and Milt have asked us to do in this stressful time...and wait. The answers will be there. It is better than falling into chaos and mudpiles of storm filled hate. Kd
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#106048 - 02/25/04 10:26 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Ms. Diamond, I have never met you, and I don't mean to be impolite. However, nothing of what you said makes sense to me. Passing a resolution requires discussion on both sides. To allow discussion on only one side is not only against Robert's Rules of Order, but is unfair and unjust in the extreme.
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#106049 - 02/25/04 10:58 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	David - Hi, I'm Kym, nice ta' meetcha'! Now that we have been somewhat introduced... $;\)$ your statement: "Passing a resolution requires discussion on both sides..." and then you state my response made no sense. Okay - let me try to apply myself to that again. The matter of open discussion, as I attempted to point out, was regarding that resolution to ask the AMA BOD to stand by Milt in his final decision. That was what the open discussion was to have been on, and no other factor. It was not a discussion factor to see what the CPLLC issues were. The discussion was on how to present and word the resolution, and, whether or not that resolution should be made. In the middle of that discussion and the desire to draw it to a vote, the CPLLC crew interjected they wanted a moment to submit facts on their stance. Clearly, "views on their stance" is in no way related to whether or not the resolution is worded correctly, whether or not the resolution was made. Two different venues. Yet, in the passionate heat of that moment, confusion entered the ring and chaos was swayed. The issue of CPLLC views was not a dissenting statement to whether or not the resolution was effectively worded or should be implemented, but, a statement that was attempting to get "their side" of the negotiations heard. Two completely different animals. Apples and oranges. Only the confusion and chaos that was raised by the "seemingly harmless" interjection took away the real focus of the resolution issue...which is the AMA standing united behind Milt Larsen. Better this time? I hope. Doin' the best I can - Kd
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#106050 - 02/25/04 03:33 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Ms. Diamond, I have never met you, and I don't mean to be rude either but... Why is it that you have a book written for every one-line-comment to other posts? BTW I heard all of the superfluous on the BoD were re-elected... what a suprise...
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#106051 - 02/25/04 03:35 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	oh... and please hold off on picking apart my post, one line at a time, with long paragraphs of useless information that I won't read...
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#106052 - 02/25/04 07:21 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6556 Loc: Southern California	The issues involved with this topic are divisive enough without resorting to dissecting how other members choose to share their thoughts on the matter. Several days ago Kym Diamond chose to ask you to stay away from a particular content within this thread, which of course was the wrong thing to do. You have elected to criticize Kym’s style: By the power vested in me as banana #3 of these forums, I declare you even. Let’s please try to stay on topic and not add to the size of this thread with posts unrelated to the actual subject. Thanks, Dustin
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#106053 - 02/25/04 09:01 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12975 Loc: Washington DC	Dustin is now officially the No.1 banana here at the Forum. The rest of us take a backseat. And would someone please tell me who the hell is Kym Diamond--a man or a woman, and where did he/she come from? Never heard the name mentioned in any of my visits to L.A. and the Magic Castle. Has anyone actually met this person? _________________________ Subscribe to Genii today at http://www.geniimagazine.com
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#106054 - 02/25/04 09:31 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Kym is a very nice lady, a magician, and a member of both the Magic Castle and this forum. I think she has as much right to spirited, opinionated and long-winded posts on this topic as anyone. I'm afraid I have been guilty of the same thing. At least she has bothered to join the organization that she has so vigorously sought to protect.
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#106055 - 02/25/04 10:41 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Originally posted by Kym Diamond: ...The discussion was on how to present and word the resolution, and, whether or not that resolution should be made. In the middle of that discussion and the desire to draw it to a vote, the CPLLC crew interjected they wanted a moment to submit facts on their stance. Clearly, "views on their stance" is in no way related to whether or not the resolution is worded correctly, whether or not the resolution was made.... The resolution was on whether to support Milt no matter what. CPLLC's approach and views are pertinent in the extreme to that question.
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#106056 - 02/25/04 10:52 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	DAVID - Then, on that matter, we can agree to disagree. All the best - Kym
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#106057 - 02/25/04 11:02 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Whit: Aw, shucks. Thanks much. (blush) Richard - Well now, who the dickens am I? I am, as Whit stated, a magicienne and a member of the AMA for six years running. I was working thematic stand up routines for several years, nothing major and nowhere that gets a name in the known bracket. Leastwises, not yet. Right now I am somewhat "non-performing status" due to lack of a working vehicle...hope to get that remedied and back out in the mix soon. It has taken me out of performing for FAR too long. I have been low-key and in the shadows (for the most part, not one who was heavy on socializing and getting involved in the AMA activities at the clubhouse, primarily for the matter of not having a car.) This situation arose, hit far too close to my heart and home with the organization I am proud of, and, brought me out of the woodwork. There are many changes happening on my homefront, and I hope to soon be more active at the clubhouse than before. There are many things about being there and being a functioning part of that embodiment that have worth. There's a lot more I could tell you - but, that would take up another soapbox and space here that is better saved for someone else's dime. $;\)$ But, yes, I am quite real and alive and on the planet (as Whit pointed out...) so y'all don't have to worry if I am merely some figment of a creative mind sent here to belabor you. $;\)$ All the best for a great day and time - Kym
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#106058 - 02/26/04 10:26 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12975 Loc: Washington DC	Okey-dokey! _________________________ Subscribe to Genii today at http://www.geniimagazine.com
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#106059 - 02/27/04 12:54 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	This is my final post. I don't see any use in trying to bring a point of view of looking at alternatives into the mix, when the approach to anyone who does, is just to accuse them of being a Castle Partner. Just consider this: the focus has been on CP approaching the Glovers "behind the back". That is almost certainly NOT what happened. If you think about it, that CP is almost certainly controlled by the Glovers, my vision is that the Glovers created CP, and invited in people they thought could make the company work. If you think that people send in a resume to be on Disney's board, you've got a good bottle. So many of you continue to bash CP, in spite of the fact that Milt publically stated they are not the demons that they are made out to be. Who is making that case? YOU. And Milt disagrees with you. Fairly respectful treatment of Milt, I'd say. Milt continues to negotiate with CP. He must consider that remaining at Lane is a preferable option....he's stated so! People have stated that he's looked for a long time for an alternative...if there is, why aren't we moving right now? No lease to tie us up! Because Milt want to find a way to stay that works for everyone, obviously. Milt's negotiating partner, Michael Flint, is treated with contempt and disrespect by many posters on the Castle forums, and here. He is NOT treated that way by Milt. I dunno...if I had a bunch of people attacking me, I'd find it difficult not to respond in kind to the provocations. It is interesting that CP, clearly controlled by the Glovers, decided to involve people with superior business skills that are also magicians. They could have asked, say, Richard Cowley, a bit of a rebel....but what special business skill does he have? I do not think it is accidental that the magicians are business-savy folk, do you? These people were not known to be particular friends, so how did they get together in CP....how about they were asked? So, it is clear that the majority of the membership is not interested in other opinions. I imagine that there will be a "purge" of "disloyal" members, if you can figure out who they are, after this settles out. Note that 10% of the people present voted AGAINST the resolution at the meeting, the one that Milt didn't want. So, I imagine that Flint and Zimmerman will be attacked and prodded and insulted by you folk until they get fed up sufficiently that they quit CP. So now the management company will have NO magician representation. Clearly THAT is a better situation for us! Or make them bitter and disgusted. Can you say "Clarence Thomas?" You guys would accomplish a lot more if you ACTUALLY supported Milt, instead of TALKED ABOUT supporting Milt. The Magic Castle is now gone, as we know it, as of the resolution of this matter....at least Milt says so, if you believe him. That being said, the ONLY thing the membership can do at this time is to figure out how to make the AMA work well, as it moves into the future. There is NOTHING that the membership can do otherwise at this time, other than to continue to undermine Milt. It might be more productive to shut up about CP, and let Milt work, if you trust him, if you support him, and if you want him to lead us. Spend the energy on making the AMA a better organization, not just made up of people who can do one trick.
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#106060 - 02/27/04 01:57 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	has there been any new news? Any meetings? Castle gone as we know it? explain..
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#106061 - 02/27/04 02:55 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12975 Loc: Washington DC	There is no news, and it is unlikely that there will be any for some time. The Magic Castle is operating, and it's business as usual for the time being. _________________________ Subscribe to Genii today at http://www.geniimagazine.com
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#106062 - 02/27/04 04:32 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	AceTwo I'd much prefer to send this to an email address and NOT post it here, but you won't give me one... >You guys would accomplish a lot more if you ACTUALLY supported Milt, instead of TALKED ABOUT supporting Milt. The Magic Castle is now gone, as we know it, as of the resolution of this matter....at least Milt says so, if you believe him. That being said, the ONLY thing the membership can do at this time is to figure out how to make the AMA work well, as it moves into the future. There is NOTHING that the membership can do otherwise at this time, other than to continue to undermine Milt. It might be more productive to shut up about CP, and let Milt work, if you trust him, if you support him, and if you want him to lead us. Spend the energy on making the AMA a better organization, not just made up of people who can do one trick. Throwing the Milt card is unfair, especially from someone anonymous. If Milt sent me an email (magiccastle@Cox.net) to shut up because I was hurting his negations, you’d never hear another word from me. Until then you expect this member to challenge everything that Castle Partners have stated if it is misinformation or half truths. No I am not going to sit back and watch the coup take place without saying a word. Besides, was it not Zimmerman who showed the ultimate disrespect by calling out lies, lies, lies, at the general meeting? Real good negotiation tactics, reminds me of Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table at the UN. There is NOTHING that Castle Partners can do to shut me up, and stop me from posting. Only ONE man can, and that is Milt. By either telling me to shut up or we’re moving. The AMA will NOT work in the same building as Castle Partners. Too many differences to work out, too many conflicts of interest, a bad marriage in my opinion. By not allowing Castle Partners to take over our building we ARE looking into the future to make the AMA “better”. If it is on Franklin or elsewhere. >>>This is my final post. I don't see any use in trying to bring a point of view of looking at alternatives into the mix, when the approach to anyone who does, is just to accuse them of being a Castle Partner. WHAT alternatives? All I have heard from Castle Partners is what I have read in Genii and the NY Sun Times. Mr. Flint has brought nothing new to the members to hang our hats on. I have heard of NO specific plans, just generalized promises. Oh, yea, that’s right “secret and confidential”. I’d rather be accused of being a loyal member of the AMA than a Castle Partner…. Finally your logic for staying anonymous is flawed. You are worried about “repercussions”. It sounds to me like you are not all that convinced Castle Partners is going to win this coup. If they do you will have NO problems as your loyalty to them will be rewarded (a hypothesis). It is hard to follow the advice of someone who is not 100% behind either Castle Partners or the AMA. The folks who are on the fence, I’ll use your figure of 10%, pretty much are waiting to see what happens. I have no problem with this at all. Sounds like a good smart safe move. Sad to see you go Acetwo. If you believe it is the best solution for your club, I can’t really fault you for that opinion. You should stay and give us reasons to believe. Based on the limited info from Castle Partners, no plan and no ideas published, I simply can’t buy into it. Sounds too much like an Enron Investment to me…..HELP me to understand WHY this is the best deal? Send ME private email mail and you have my word it will be only between you and I. If you know me you know that is all you need. If you and I have spoken in the past, then I will try and convince you that you are being pulled to the dark side. When I was on the BoD many members and employees came to me in confidance. I never let them down. Castle Partners wants to let us know AFTER the deal is done. Does that not bother you? Please don’t throw the Milt card again unless you can truly speak for him. John
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#106063 - 02/27/04 07:17 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	John you say: "I will try and convince you that you are being pulled to the dark side" yet in the very same post you admit: "I have heard of NO specific plans" and... "Based on the limited info from Castle Partners, no plan and no ideas published" So... let me get this straight... you claim that Acetwo is getting sucked into something that you haven't any clue about. I rest my case. You know nothing... My suggestion would be that you stop trying to light the fire under something that hasn't fully come to light on it's own.. Just because YOU don't have any clue as to what CP's plans are, doesn't mean they're evil and you should have nothing to do with them. You would be more the fool to bash down with a snap judgment base on your limited knowledge of the group without giving them time to present themselves. They don't have to do it by your schedule either, but I'm sure you will fault them for not being as fast and upfront as YOU would prefer it. Even still you don't sound like the kind of guy to gave anyone a fair enough chance. What you're doing instead, is spiking the drinking water of the viewing audience before the result of a horse race are out. So like you said, you haven't a clue as to What the CP's are planning, so stop portraying them as the bad guys. They may be the best thing to ever happen to the place if you gave them a chance to present there case... not by your time, but by the Glovers stop watch..
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#106064 - 02/27/04 10:08 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Hello kind friends, I don't agree with everything Brian has siad or in the manner in which he has said things here but, it is a little odd that everyone on this forum seems to be yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when it comes to these CP people. The last I've heard, there was no need for fearing these CP people based on what we know as of now. I to know nothing about them and who at this point can come to any logical conclusion. It suprizes me even more to hear people say they don't even want to hear anything from these people, which indicates a pure lack of common sense. I'd hate to join a club where everyone is opinionated without having at least rumors backing up there hatred lol I guess I'm just hoping for some positive moral and professionalism here, which isn't to much to ask. Lets all wait and see what happens. All things can work out if both sides are heard and both sides considered with open minds. Besides, it doesn't sound like we really have much choice in the outcome to begin with. What may come to pass is however that we realize in the end that we were all on the same side to begin with and it is only because of a handful of those that are scared of change, that anything is given a fair chance. **let's let this thread cool down a bit, and lets wait for some real info. for example better facts that we can't debate with personal attacks. Cheers Joel Payne Dream Best Dreams
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#106065 - 02/27/04 10:21 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	one more thing.. I will be joining the AMA come April Yippee!!, and I'm looking forward to being a part of the AMA and a fun club (no matter what happens) Let's all keep our spirits up.. Me, being a new member, I won't know about all of your rumored pasts. lol Peace. -JP
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#106066 - 02/27/04 11:32 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	"Brian_D" The problem is only one of trust. CP won't tell us anything until AFTER the new lease has been signed. Call me funny, but that does not set well with me. Call me silly, but I have to go with the side I believe in and trust. John
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#106067 - 02/28/04 12:09 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete McCabe Pete McCabe Registered: 01/18/08 Posts: 1464 Loc: Woodland Hills	Quote: Originally posted by Pete Biro: Maybe close on Mondays (like many restaurants to cut expenses) and have Tuesday/Wednesdays for MEMBERS ONLY and have a buffet, or a fixed menu,no ordering from a menu, at a member-friendly price. This plan has been green-lighted! Here's the menu for the new member's only night: Fruit Cups and Meatballs Strat-o-salad Ambitious Cod Sawing a Lady in Half and Half Run, Welsh Rarebit, Run Frog Prince’s Legs Hot Scrod For desert: Cone Zero
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#106068 - 02/28/04 10:29 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	John Scanlan that's understandable, it's hard to trust what you don't yet understand, this is why nightmare on elmstreet one was scary while once you saw what he looked like, you started to find it funny.. We should really wait and see what these people have to offer. Like I said, we may all be on the same side after all. I know we all want whats best for the group.
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#106069 - 02/28/04 12:05 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Several of you are correct. We seem to be down to debating minor insignificant points of little consequence. . So much compost has been piled on both sides; it is impossible to sort out just what is the real issue. So I am going to ratchet it way back and just stick to what I want. I want the club and Magic Castle to remain in complete control of Milt and the AMA. That’s it. Do you recall when you were a kid and your Mom was going to come in a clean up your room because it was a mess? You know she could do a better job & much faster than anyone cleaning it up. But darn it, it was YOUR room and stay the heck out Mom, I’ll clean it my self. No different here. Same scenario here. This is NOT about money, door counts, profit or who books the entertainment. It is not about more benefits for the members or better shows, or a fresh coat of paint in the kitchen. It is simply about “the club”. The club IS defined as everything inside the building including the F&B. I don’t care if Castle Partners will do a better job. It simply is NOT in the equation for me to allow them to do it. Not logical? Not good business sense? Well I am the first to admit it is not. But that is my passion and my choice. If Glovers are not happy with us, then the best solution is to send us on our way. We all must leave the nest someday. Now sounds like a good time. I’m through bickering, name calling and fighting on line. If someone needs to be taken down a notch I will do it as it should be done, in private. I may not post any more on Genii because I find myself getting into arguments with NON members and phantoms. What is the point in that? I apologize to any of you I may have “insulted” in my posts. I just don’t see any need to drag AMA or MC family business to an entity outside of that family. Poor judgment on my part to have done so. Our job at the AMA/Castle is to provide you, the magicians whom are not members an organization you would want to join. Based on the many post I and others have made, we have not portrayed an organization you would be proud to join. I recall the IBM wars of a few years ago. Please accept my profound apologies. Passion and pride sometimes gets in the way of judgment. John Scanlan magiccastle@cox.net 626-664-3597 (c)
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#106070 - 02/28/04 04:36 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	John Scanlan "Do you remember when you were a kid and your Mom was going to come in a clean up your room because it was a mess? You know she could do a better job & much faster. But darn it, it was YOUR room and stay the heck out, I’ll clean it my self. No different here. Same scenario." You are right John, same scenario. Your mom and/or your dad owned the house, and if she told you for 3 years to clean your room and you didn't, she would clean it for you, no matter how many times in the last 3 years you told her you would. Great analogy! John, "I don’t care if Castle Partners will do a better job, they probably can." (This quote is from your Castle Forum post. My apologies if I have committed any copyright infringement.) Thanks John, coming from you that means alot. John " If Glovers are not happy with us there, then the best solution is to send us on our way. We all must leave the nest someday." So, you believe that instead of trying to work out something that works for CP, the Glovers, the AMA & Milt Larsen, we should just have handed Milt a 30 day notice on January 1, 2004? WOW, that's really cold and very telling. I know that Milt has had 3 years to find a new location, but that really is cold.
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#106071 - 02/28/04 05:25 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Well, as John says, there is no new information, and people are arguing minor points and (I say, not John), deconstructing posts with the verve of Stalinist trial. I personally think its impossible to have a productive discussion when people use every opportunity to take parts of statements out of context and provide interpretations that are clearly not what the writer intended. People aren't really discussing at this stage, but playing to the audience, I would say. (BTW, as a disclaimer, I have no horse in this race - I live in the bay area, do not belong to the magic castle, and have no personal knowledge of, or relationship to any of the principals or other posters.) It does seem to me, though, that there are two incompatible points of view being expressed, and one side (CP) does everything in its power to not directly address this, but instead tries to push the discussion elsewhere. John Scanlan said this very clearly in his last post, as many other posters have said in earlier posts - if Milt/AMA have to give up control of their clubhouse, then it is not worth staying - end of discussion. CP never addresses this issue, at least in their posts here. The discussion is always changed to how they could run things better, or the Glovers have the right to step in, or the AMA will realize how financially beneficial it would be to let CP run things, etc. or various forms of ad hominem attacks. These things (with the exception of the ad-hominem attacks) may be true, but are beside the point. As far as I can tell people are shooting at the target they want to hit, not addressing the key issue - should the AMA give up control of their clubhouse and become guests, in return for stability and financial security? I would assume that is what the negotiations are about - is it a little loss of autonomy and control, or would the AMA members feel like second class citizens in a commercial establishment?
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#106072 - 02/28/04 06:24 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 320 Loc: Hollyweird	Maybe the CP should open their own place and see how easy it isn't. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#106073 - 02/28/04 06:38 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Steve Bryant Steve Bryant Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 255 Loc: Bloomington IN	Quote: So, you believe that instead of trying to work out something that works for CP, the Glovers, the AMA & Milt Larsen, we should just have handed Milt a 30 day notice on January 1, 2004? What's cold is you guys insinuating yourselves into a position to do this. You just don't get it. You guys are the bad guys in this sad turn of events.
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#106074 - 02/28/04 10:15 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Steve V Steve V Registered: 01/20/08 Posts: 639 Loc: Silver Springs, NV	I was on the fence about this whole thing, I just didn't want to see Milt hurt as he heads into his senior years. Michael convinced me in his last post that the AMA and Milt is the party under attack and being hurt. It is very sad what is happening and I hope that at the end Milt and company wins, meaning the AMA wins, be it at the Castle or elsewhere. As for John Scanlon, I appreciate his passion and his presence. Steve V _________________________ Steve V
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#106075 - 02/28/04 11:18 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Here's another vote for Mr. Scanlon's passion and presence. Thanks! $\:\)$
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#106076 - 02/29/04 12:02 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Nicholas Carifo Nicholas Carifo Registered: 03/13/08 Posts: 175 Loc: Los Angeles, CA	Saw this posted today in Alan Watson's NZ Magic Newsletter. Thought all those in this thread would be interested since I have not seen it reprinted here yet.... --------------------------------------------- FROM ALAN WATSONS NZ NEWSLETTER 2/28/04: The Castle Partners And Their Vision For The Magic Castle In Hollywood ----------------- Message from Diana Zimmerman (US) My apologies for the delay. We were hoping to have something more solid to provide you with, but it has not yet been forthcoming. I can, however, tell you the following.. Castle Partners, LLC has made the AMA a ten point offer. Peter Reveen and Andy Ulloa (Tom Glover's Stepson) presented it to the Academy Board at their last meeting. Amazingly, we were only given ten minutes to present such an important issue. We did, however, meet a few days later with Lew Horowitz, Dale Hindman and Milt Larsen to discuss and clarify the offer. They asked dozens of questions regarding it, all of which we seemed to be able to answer to their satisfaction. Naturally, there are many, many details to be worked out. We are awaiting a response from the AMA's new Board of Directors. The anticipated time frame is the 15th of March. The details of the offer are still confidential. However, I can tell you that instead of the approximately 104K that the AMA reported as profit last year (2003), Castle Partners, LLC's offer will put up to a million dollars in its pocket each year - naturally, to do with as it likes. With these type of funds, there should be no reason to ever increase member dues again - but that will, of course, be up to that AMA. CPLLC's offer will greatly increase member benefits in the areas that many members have been asking for such as better access to shows, a members only area, special "members only" dinners and pricing, increase in magicians pay, plus so much more. Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will have the same access, (or better) etc., as always. I think that is very important to reiterate.. Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will have the same access, etc., (or better) as always. It will also provide the AMA with a long-term lease. Under CP's offer, the Castle will be run by an Operational Board that we hope will include: the AMA, CP, the Glovers, Irene and Milt. We have also insisted that any deal include restoring Irene Larsen with equity, something that was taken away from her when Bill died. Additionally, CPLLC has made Milt Larsen a very lucrative offer. He is in the process of reviewing it. Milt has stated that he will get back to us by the first week in March. We very much want Milt to stay involved and support him 100%. Milt, like Walt Disney, is a great visionary. But even Walt realized that he needed a great business person with him to carry on his legacy - and by Milt's own admission, he is not a business man. There have been a lot of mis-truths and un-substantiated rumors stated about CPLLC. Unfortunately, the story broke long before it should have, and that started all of the "silliness." Let me clarify a few of the more well-touted misconceptions. It all started when, having heard all of the rumors that the Glovers were not happy with the AMA and Milt, and that they wanted to "turn the Castle into a disco," Peter Reveen, Bob Rossi, Michael Flint and myself approached the Glovers through a third party, Bill Rose, about buying the property to give the AMA a permanent home. Our offer was flatly turned down. We did, however, learn that the Glovers had no intention of making it a "disco" and that this was just another bit of propaganda to make them look like the bad guys! It was ONLY after negotiations with Milt had completely fallen apart (the Glovers negotiated for 21/2 years with him to no avail) that we stepped up to the plate. This was also ONLY after being assured by the Glovers that neither Milt, nor the AMA would be given a new lease at all if we didn't get involved. And that if we did get involved, that Milt, the AMA and the original intent of the Castle, i.e. to keep the Magic Castle a private club for Magicians would be upheld. With this in place, we decided to intervene. If I can leave your readers with just one thought, it is this. All of the people involved with CPLLC are visionary builders - not destroyers. We all love the Castle. Peter has been there since its very founding. I started the Junior program, which is now thirty years old. Michael served on the Marketing committee for eight years. It is in honor of Bill and Irene Larsen, their father, William Larsen, Sr. and of course Milt, that we have worked so very hard to provide a solution that will enable the Castle to flourish for the next forty years. I hope this helps to clarify a few issues. Sincerely, Diana Zimmerman ---------------------------------------- THIS ABOVE POST BY DIANA ZIMMERMAN REPOSTED HERE FROM ALAN WATSON'S NZ E-ZINE 2/28/04 --nc
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#106077 - 02/29/04 09:46 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Nicholas - thank you for posting this article...how strange it had to appear in New Zealand first...and then work its way here. Oh well. The following is from the article: "The details of the offer are still confidential. However, I can tell you that instead of the approximately 104K that the AMA reported as profit last year (2003), Castle Partners, LLC's offer will put up to a million dollars in its pocket each year - naturally, to do with as it likes. KD: Okay - but whose pockets will that "up to a million dollars" go into? CPLLC is placing itself as the owner of the operation in all of this...and, usually, the profits go to the operation of the establishment...or, to the landlord, or, to the owner. I don't foresee a direct link to the membership in theory or in the mis-leading statement given above. CP: With these type of funds, there should be no reason to ever increase member dues again - but that will, of course, be up to that AMA. CPLLC's offer will greatly increase member benefits in the areas that many members have been asking for such as better access to shows, a members only area, special "members only" dinners and pricing, increase in magicians pay, plus so much more." KD: What is the "members only area" Is it the lower level of the basement? Will the "members only food" be served there? And, if the new owners need that space for their functions, will the "members only" be asked not to appear for that night? As far as I see it, the whole dang clubhouse right now is "members only" - except that we invite guests and other corporate entities into our setting. The matters listed are very easily encompassed by our own organization - without any loss of control from our own organization upon our own organization - by expansion or relocation of our clubhouse. CP: Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will have the same access, (or better) etc., as always. I think that is very important to reiterate.. Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will have the same access, etc., (or better) as always. KD: The minute we lose the control of the food and beverage and entertainment operations of our clubhouse we have been compromised. These are a part of our membership as well...whether conceivable as "benefits" or not....it is important to acknowledge the "Benefit" of self-operation control...and not falling prey to an outside directive operating our club and clubhouse for the best of their interests. Just a couple of quick thoughts before I grab a cup of coffee and really study this thing further. Thanks again for posting this here. An action that the CPLLC could have done (posting this article here) at any point in these given forums in our country. I guess it served them better to publish their interests half way around the planet. I didn't know that the embodiment of the AMA was on holiday in New Zealand and planning to move our club there. Geesh. Kd
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#106078 - 02/29/04 10:03 AM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	KD: Okay - but whose pockets will that "up to a million dollars" go into? if I read it correctly it looks to be handed over to the AMA? I would'nt speculate beyond what has been written Kym. It looks like we'll know all about it in a few short weeks. See you all Tuesday at the Castle. Best. Joel Payne
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#106079 - 02/29/04 12:08 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	The million dollars will be surplus AMA money from dues, initiation fees, swap meet, magic class revenue. The surplus will come from not paying all employees which will be CP's responsibility, not paying maintenance, utilities, workers comp, etc. Overly simplified, this will be a gigantic surplus of AMA dues money. The surplus will be there because the AMA is no longer responsible for paying all of the bills that they are paying now. By design, this surplus will never be touched by CP. It will be moneys collected by the AMA from it's members. It is money that will be handled only by the AMA, again to do with as the AMA pleases. The members only area will be determined by an operations board which will include AMA reps, Milt & Irene. Kym, where would you like it to be? A few days ago, I suggested that anyone with an interest in this issue, recalculate the AMA 2003 financial statement, removing the costs of operating the club. That is what we did to calculate the surplus of up to one million dollars for the AMA.
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#106080 - 02/29/04 12:29 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Hi Mike - you ask: "The members only area will be determined by an operations board which will include AMA reps, Milt & Irene. Kym, where would you like it to be?" KD: In a clubhouse location that is under the direct control of the AMA and not that of an outside firm. $;\)$ All the best - Kd :cool;
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#106081 - 02/29/04 12:44 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	To Kym and all others that want to control the future and destiny of the AMA: A few of the problems that the AMA has today stem from not being tax exempt, and not having a war chest. Try this on for size: Stay at the Lane mansion for as short a period of time as possible (3 to 5 years?). During that time, trade total control for an active role and an extra million dollars per year (3 to 5 million dollars). Get tax exempt (501c3) status so that no taxes are paid on the millions. This would be a slam dunk to do without a food and beverage operation. While building a war chest at the present location, see what it is like to enjoy the club with none of the current headaches. During that time, the AMA board and Scanlan could fix and improve any or all of the issues (large & small) that members complain about on this forum & others. If you like "living" with CP, then stay longer and if you don't.....well with millions of dollars saved up, you could move into a building that you could own. In the big picture, looking at the future of the AMA as being at least another 40 years, wouldn't a few years now better allow you and the AMA to really control their destiny forever?
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#106082 - 02/29/04 02:06 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Michael - you show appetizing bait. It is merely speculation. Here is reality. Your organization made an unethical and under the rug approach to take control of the Lane Mansion and, in effect, the AMA. As representative of that organization, you have never given direct facts, proof, evidence, or otherwise of any matter requested of you. You have taken to heart the ability to point out our errors and difficulties, all the time stating you have an answer. Even now, that "answer" is speculation in an attempt to sway the concept in your direction. Your actions, and those of your group are point enough for me that I do not wish your organization controlling my clubhouse. You have taken great care in baiting individuals on these forums and elsewheres, interjecting material in other threads, all done in "divide and conquer" strategies, hidden manipulations worthy of the magician you are, and otherwise. Even this "rosey picture" you offer is still a "divide and conquer" tactic..."See how great it would be, see how wonderful it is, see how green the grass is on the other side. Sorry, I don't take apples from snakes. Even if they are in "greener grass" than on a tree limb. You and your organization came into an AMA membership meeting on your AMA membership cards. You were not there as AMA members, you were there as CPLLC to present yourselves and your views. This is a falsified use of your membership and, in my book, highly unethical...which holds true to the pattern you have shown and established in this attempted takeover since the start. In this last point, you used your AMA membership to garner you an inside position at OUR meeting - not a CPLLC meeting - which you are. Oh! Wait...using your memberships to gain your leverage is what you have done all along the route. Shame on you. And yet you still state you respect this organization and care for it. Sorry, Michael, I do not trust you or feel that is exactly what this is about. Your track record speaks louder to me than any baited promise of "green grass growing and blue water flowing". I like my grass and water fine as they are just now, thank you. And, if those meadows and streams need attending to and care, I wish it by the hands of the AMA and our organization only, not a pack of wolves who have donned sheeps clothing in order to gain better entry into that flock. Respectfully back to you... KD
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#106083 - 02/29/04 02:52 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Kym, I think you fail to grasp the true fact. That Milt has no lease, the CP are offering a good deal (in my opinion being to kind) and it doesn't look as if the AMA has a choice but to except it or move.. Since the AMA hasn't made the announcement that they are moving, my guess is that the AMA should be happy with whatever good graces they are offered by the Glovers who could pull the plug and sell the land alone for 50 million. The writing is on the wall... there doesn't seem to be any AMA bargaining chip because it makes no sense to me, that if Milt had a war chest of sorts, why he would put up with CP running the club at all. The thought alone would have been move us months ago. Obviously he doesn't have this option to move, or he would been moved years ago while the lease up. My educated guess, is that he is trying his best to hold on to what he has now by trying to keep the AMA calm. specifically by not making any crazy statements like the ones you seem to be fond of. Don't you think it a little odd that the BoD remained the same? That fact only backs up what I had said before about them. My vote in the AMA means nothing...and THAT is FACT you can hang your that on. Good luck on changing thing, it would seem THAT'S impossible.
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#106084 - 02/29/04 03:01 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	and for the record and to all of you old and new passioniate AMA'rs.. if this debate is'nt about a damn Clubhouse(Building) then what REALLY IS the problem with CP running the (structure).. If the AMA is still the AMA then why hold so much anger over another group of people running The Lane mansion. I'm confused now... this debate is still about the AMA right?? or is it.. I don't know about you folks.. but I don't claim to be a member of the "magic Castle" I'm a member of the "AMA" so... I guess you don't have an argument with the separation of the two entities... now... if this debate is about money, you'd think any organization would be happy to have a private club where they don't have to deal with the costs of running the home they're housed in while gaining a possible million each year? You people should stick to one target at a time, or you'll find one on your own in not sticking to the point. Either you're worried about losing the "Lane mansion", or you're worried about the AMA. sounds like you want you cake and eat it to.. problem is who is handing out the cake.. Clearly, the Glovers could kick you all out of your whining ears..
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#106085 - 02/29/04 03:10 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Brian D.: I don't know who you are, but earlier you said you were not a member of the AMA: "I will join the AMA if it doesn't remain in limbo for months on end. I have no problem with the AMA, only the BOD. Even still, I doubt I as a newcomer could do anything to change the situation if 5,000 members have done little to improve the current troubles." Which is it? You sure have a lot of opinions about what we members should do.
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#106086 - 02/29/04 04:14 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Brian – At first I thought you really had some desire to understand and grasp what was going on. Anymore I think you are merely looking for an excuse to attack an organization, individuals, or anything else you can get a rise out of and entice into a flame war. However – Believe it or not, the AMA has several playing chips. And, those will be used in this game when needed. As for Milt looking to “move us” you have no idea of how long Milt has been exploring the avenues of relocation of our clubhouse facility. Those are strategies and explorations that must, in order to get the best business deal, kept as private and as personal as possible. You state: “if this debate is'nt about a damn Clubhouse(Building) then what REALLY IS the problem with CP running the (structure).. If the AMA is still the AMA then why hold so much anger over another group of people running The Lane mansion.” Brian – understand this – the AMA is in charge of our clubhouse…wherever that structure sits or exists. A group coming in and running the clubhouse removes the AMA from operating it’s own structure and identity. It wouldn’t matter if we were sitting in a clubhouse in Kalamazoo that our club operated, the outside group coming in and attempting to run the business end of our club takes that from the club, and, in effect, runs the club based upon their whims. The club meets within the clubhouse…the clubhouse belongs to the club… As for location of that clubhouse, or whether or not that clubhouse needs to expand and relocate has NOTHING to do with a hostile take over of a club’s operation. Apples and oranges, Brian. Two separate things that are closely united in the barrel just now, that is all. All CPLLC is offering is speculation on “greener pastures”…and the adage about “greener grass on the other side of the fence” very much applies here. The offer is there, but, what do the actions of that group present? A highly dishonorable and undesirable organization with no ethical standards of operation. I do not wish that to own the business operation of my club. Nor do I wish my club to be subject to such an organizations desires and whims. The worry is now, and has been, and will be, about the embodiment of the AMA. That is applied to the size and functionality space of our clubhouse, that is applied to the hostile takeover of the operational arm of our organization by an undesirable group, that is applied to the future growth and development of the AMA as its own entity under its own banner into the 21st century. Yes, Brian, these factors are about the AMA. An organization you option to find so much wrong with and catcall at and yet refuse to come forward and join…an organization you stated you wished to join, an organization you have been invited to join by several individuals and take a stance to work towards creating a better future for that club. You have not done this. You continue your pattern of trying to enter flame war discussions with other individuals and delighting in making public the faults you personally see within the embodiment of the AMA. When this discussion with you first started, it was your stating that YOUR image of the AMA was the embodiment of the clubhouse – i.e., the Magic Castle. You focused on the Lane house as being the central point. Since then, you have turned to public assaults on the AMA organization and the BOD – an organization YOU ARE NOT A PART OF. Unless you are a part of that organization, Brian, you do not (in my personal opinion) have a right to criticize it. And, if you were a part of that organization (in my personal opinion) your public taking that club to task in forums (other than those which belong to the club itself) are disrespectful to that group and show a real lack of concerned character upon your behalf. Say, you sound like a member of the CPLLC, did you know that? That's a group of indidividuals who I really don't want in my organization.
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#106087 - 02/29/04 06:44 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	You say: "AMA from operating it’s own structure and identity" The Glovers own the "structure" and can do what they will with it. as for the "Identity," this is a separate issue. Hostile or not, I don't think the AMA have a choice at this point. Is'nt that what makes it hostile? Because members like youself can't accept that you don't have a choice? The only person who does is Milt, and either he will put up with this, or pick up his marbles and go... one way or another YOU will have nothing to do with that choice, so stop your bashing of the CP. *For the record, I AM A MEMBER, have been for 12 years. I love the AMA, I don't like the current BoD* Is the fear I have of losing my membership warented? Yes. Do I enjoy being run off by you people like Acetwo just because I see a different view? no. Y our high horse opinions about me not having a valuable opinion just because I'm not a member just rang out to all of those magicians who live in other states who love the AMA and dissagree with you. However, you'll be happy to know that this will be my final post.. because honestly Kym, you are missguided on these issues and as most women, you think with your emotions. Personally I'd rather pass on the personal attacks as I'm sure anyone would. You can't even adopt you're own suggestions of "wait and see" and no... I'm not with CP, but I hope they clean up the place (if you know what I mean) good luck.
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#106088 - 02/29/04 06:46 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	You know, I'm at the point now, where wish I hadn't read all the posts in this thread. I've never been to the Magic Castle, but in the whole time I've been doing magic, it has been there, a symbol of magic, and art and tradition, a banner behind which one might rally, a cloak in which a magician might wrap himself. Most things we do in life have a history, and a headquarters, a thing to aspire to, the Magic Castle provided this, to me anyways for magic. But the banner is torn, the cloak cast off, the illusion dispelled. After reading this, the arguing, the bitterness, the deceptions, and the anger, my friends, the magic is gone. I ask you, all of you to put aside your differences, and at the very least, put on a unified front to the world. Move the Castle, Save the Castle, let someone else run it, but anything, any possible solution would be better than "winning" and ending up with a fractured and spiteful membership. For all the magicians in the world who do not live close to the castle, for all of us who view it as a symbol, I ask again, put aside your differences. Be big enough people to give your support to Mr. Larsen, even if you do not think it right. Have the courage to remain silent, ye dissenting voices, for the good of the symbol that is the magic castle and the AMA.
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#106089 - 02/29/04 07:23 PM Re: Attention Magic Castle Members
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12975 Loc: Washington DC	As the longest thread (by far) in the history of The Genii Forum, I think things have at last run their course ... for the time being. This thread is now locked, and until there is actually something new to report, I would appreciate if no new threads on this subject are started. When there is genuine news to report, please send me a personal e-mail and I'll reopen the thread so you can post it. _________________________ Subscribe to Genii today at http://www.geniimagazine.com
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