#163369 - 04/16/08 10:19 AM
The Professor
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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I refer to the article Vernons Wisdom, Part 1 by Roberto Giobbi.
He states that Vernon always strove for excellence, and gives two examples. In one instance he informed his son, who had proudly announced to him that he had come third in an athletic competition, never to come to him again unless he got at least first place. Personally I can think of nothing worse to tell a child in these circumstances. In the second instance, after a man had approached him and showed him a lousy card trick, he scolded him with the words that he was the worst magician he had ever seen, and that he should never show him another card trick.
I mean really, is this guy for real? Imagine if all magicians treated their colleagues in this way. Hardly what one would call striving for excellence. I would be interested in the opinions of others.
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#163371 - 04/16/08 10:39 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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I refer to the article Vernons Wisdom, Part 1 by ...is this guy for real? Imagine if all magicians treated their colleagues in this way....
You are starting off by striking some raw nerves - the largest of which would likely be bringing to bear common social decency and social norms upon an icon - who serves this community as an object lesson.
Yes, though if Peter Pan did that the rest of the lost boys would be most confused.
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#163387 - 04/16/08 12:07 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jonathan Townsend]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Of course I respect him....as an icon.
What I questioned was the manner in which he purportedly strove for excellence, or may the words or actions of an icon not be questioned ? Do I remember someone describing him as a decrepit old man who had neglected his family? Nobody who puts themselves in the public eye is above scrutiny, that includes the Professor and Peter Pan
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#163388 - 04/16/08 12:12 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jonathan Townsend]
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Brandon Hall
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 138
Loc: North Hollywood, CA
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Talent and character do not necessarily go hand in hand. There are many, many stories that highlight the mans shortcomings. He was however, just a man.
_________________________
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"
P. Townshend
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#163389 - 04/16/08 12:18 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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DrDanny
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Sunnyvale CA
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FEET OF CLAY: an unexpected flaw or vulnerable point in the character of a hero or any admired person. (From the "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson, Facts on File, New York, 1997).
Not all that rare an affliction, really.
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#163453 - 04/16/08 10:06 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: DrDanny]
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Gordolini
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 55
Loc: Louisville, KY
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000 - I visit this forum on occassion and have glanced at others, and agree that finding unexepected flaws in character of our admired heros that strive for excellence( whether in magic, music, sports, business, fill in the blank) is not all that rare an affliction...
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#163458 - 04/16/08 10:52 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: DrDanny]
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John LeBlanc
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 98
Loc: Houston, TX
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FEET OF CLAY: an unexpected flaw or vulnerable point in the character of a hero or any admired person. (From the "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson, Facts on File, New York, 1997).
As the name of the book is, "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" I find it ironic you would short change Mr. Hendrickson's reputation by abridging his entry on the very origin of the phrase:
FEET OF CLAY - "The phrase comes from the Old Testament (Dan.2:31-32). There the Hebrew captain Daniel interprets a dream for Nebuchadnezzar, founder of the new Babylonian Empire. Nebuchadnezzar had dreamed of a giant idol with golden head, silver arms and chest, brass thighs and body, and iron legs. Only the feet of this image, compounded of iron and potter's clay, weren't made wholly of metal. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that the clay feet of the figure made it vulnerable, that it prophesized the breaking apart of his empire. Over the years readers of the Bible were struck with the phrase 'feet of clay' in the story and it was used centuries ago to describe an unexpected flaw or vulnerable point in the character of a hero or any admired person." From the "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997).
John
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#163565 - 04/18/08 12:08 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: John LeBlanc]
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Dan Strange
Member
Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 5
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Nobody who puts themselves in the public eye is above scrutiny, that includes the Professor
Not to excuse any shortcomings but I'm not sure it is accurate to say Vernon put himself in the public eye, rather other people put him in the public eye. At least that is how I understand things.
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#163602 - 04/18/08 11:37 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Dan Strange]
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Brandon Hall
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 138
Loc: North Hollywood, CA
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Vernon was a magician. A magician is a performer. A performer requires an audience. He put himself in the public eye.
_________________________
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"
P. Townshend
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#163639 - 04/18/08 03:40 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Brandon Hall]
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flynn
Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 182
Loc: Phoenix AZ
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He was just from a different generation thats why. But his constructive crticism, as he called it, was a bit harsh I think.
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#163654 - 04/18/08 06:08 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Brandon Hall]
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Max Maven
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 50
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Vernon was a magician. A magician is a performer. A performer requires an audience. He put himself in the public eye.
Your syllogism is faulty. Most magicians are performers, but by no means all. Some are primarily theorists. The Professor did some performing, but that was a relatively small part of his activities during a long timespan.
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#163667 - 04/18/08 08:22 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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Glenn Godsey
Registered: 03/22/08
Posts: 58
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If Vernon was blunt about what he considered to be mediocre, he was equally effusive with praise about talent he admired.
I did the painting of the cups and balls that has hung in the Vernon nook all these years. Dai lavished praise on me both in long letters and in person. He went to the trouble of having photos made of him with the painting and when I met him twice in person, he spent a lot of time with me and continually praised my art.
This wasn't thanks for a gift...I didn't give the painting to Vernon or to the Castle (although I don't think that Milt is aware of that. I have remember to clue him in one of these days). I agreed to leave the painting at the castle on loan for an indefinite period of time because Dai was so taken with it.
He was extremely kind and complimentary to me, and he seemed very sincere in his praise.
Glenn Godsey
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#163674 - 04/18/08 09:31 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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NCMarsh
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 270
Loc: Tampa, Florida
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Imagine if all magicians treated their colleagues in this way.
There was a dean at my alma mater who, I think only half-kiddingly, proposed the following as a curriculum for a complete college education:
Freshman year: The Bible, with beatings
Sophomore year: Aristotle, to learn the power of reason
Junior year: Kant, to learn the limits of reason
Senior year: The Bible, without beatings
When it comes to training in the arts, there is a long tradition of something like "The Bible, with beatings" as the student's foundation. If you lived in the walls of a freshman art school dormitory, you would hear a river of tears the night following the first studio critique.
There is very good reason for the earnest upbraiding that those starting out, in these circumstances, get:
The greatest obstacle to progress in any art/craft is the difficulty untangling yourself from your work. You have to be able to observe your work -- as passionate as you are about it -- as this thing outside of you; like it is something growing in a petri dish. You are dispassionately observing it, seeing what's going to help it grow and what's keeping it from growing.
If the ego is tied up in the work, we ignore faults in the work because they threaten us: they are faults with us; and we can never move forward because we protect ourselves by hiding those faults rather than protecting the work by striving to eliminate them.
The first step towards being able to achieve that separation is to have your bell rung by someone who knows a lot more about the craft than you. Often, it can be a sign of respect. When an expert sees someone who is sharing their work just because they want to hear nice things, they often acquiesce and pat the performer on the head (having seen the work of some of those who were on the receiving end of glowing praise from Vernon -- I wonder if he was always sincere in his effusiveness). When they see someone who earnestly wants to improve and has in them the seed of doing things well -- that's when a beating, when warranted, is likely.
I have no idea who the performer in the anecdote was or what the context was, this post isn't about that anecdote. I am only saying that honesty about each others work -- and, more importantly, honesty about our own work -- may not be such an awful thing for magic. It's a question of what we value more: our feelings or our work.
We hear complaints all the time about magic not being respected as "art." I can say this much: the legitimate arts are populated with people who care more about the work than their feelings.
N.
Edited by NCMarsh (04/18/08 09:31 PM)
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#163698 - 04/19/08 06:35 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Sounds like the military.....first break you down, then buld you up? Constructive criticism, now were talking. Pehaps his epitah should have read, Here lies a great man, but he could have been nicer. Enough said?
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#163699 - 04/19/08 08:35 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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David Alexander
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1273
Loc: Aurora IL
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Defining Vernon as a "Great Man" stretches the definition of the words "great" and "man."
He was a poor father and a lousy husband, two responsibilities he deliberately avoided or abandoned.
Absent the Magic Castle, it is highly likely that in his later years he would have gone down the road Francis Carlyle traveled.
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#163704 - 04/19/08 09:55 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: David Alexander]
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Glenn Bishop
Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 423
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I remember meeting Dai Vernon and he was the few magicians I met at that time that really lived up to his reputation. I respected Dai Vernon and his published works.
However without his published works, his routines and theory that were part of the published works of the magic community. And his retirement years at the magic castle and his column in Genii Magazine.
Magicians may not have remembered him.
In my opinion magicians like Vernon and Marlo - they seemed to like to session with a small group of magicians. More than they liked to "perform" magic.
However it is mostly through their published works - that they are remembered by magicians today.
Just my opinion.
Edited by Glenn Bishop (04/19/08 09:56 AM)
_________________________
Bish The Magish
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#163716 - 04/19/08 12:18 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Glenn Bishop]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Absent the Magic Castle and its idealized non real world close up performance settings ( it was Bruce Chevron who said that it was in the early Castle days that they realized that a living could be made performing close up) and the professor would have been doomed to perform stand up in his silly oriental garb for a few more years.
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#163721 - 04/19/08 01:00 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: David Alexander]
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Doc Dixon
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 84
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Defining Vernon as a "Great Man" stretches the definition of the words "great" and "man."
He was a poor father and a lousy husband, two responsibilities he deliberately avoided or abandoned.
I remember watching the bio documentary about Vernon and his son, now a grown man saying "As a father he was a great magician." Then he nervously laughed. If ever there was a cautionary tale about what's really important in this world and in magic, that was it. I hate to play amateur psychiatrist, but there seemed to be a world of hurt in those eight words.
Funny I should come upon this topic when I did. I discovered it after I put my 19 month old boy down for his afternoon nap, after our lunch and playtime. Coincidences are funny sometimes, aren't they?
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#163742 - 04/19/08 06:44 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Doc Dixon]
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Max Maven
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 50
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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I am baffled by the revisionism regarding Dai Vernon that seems to crop up about once a year.
The Professor was a genius, whose influence on magic was and is pervasive, arguably beyond that of any other person during the 20th century. But yes, he was also a fallible human being, and had plenty of negative baggage.
In case you haven't noticed, that is the nature of most people.
Some of the comments that have piled on in this thread have been questionable. For example: "Absent the Magic Castle, it is highly likely that in his later years he would have gone down the road Francis Carlyle traveled."
Perhaps, but the fact is that Francis Carlyle also became part of the Castle community during his later years, so the premise of that statement doesn't hold up to the actual history.
Or: "[W]ithout his published works ... Magicians may not have remembered him."
Yep. And without the published works of the majority of authors, they wouldn't be remembered. What is the point of that statement?
Or: "Absent the Magic Castle ... the professor would have been doomed to perform stand up in his silly oriental garb for a few more years."
Now this is nonsensical. Vernon did an act in Chinese attire for a very short time (and, by all accounts, it was quite good). But, although he could have worked doing stand-up as a full-time career, he chose not to. In his early days he made top dollar doing small scale performances at private parties for the very rich. For brief periods he explored doing stand-up character acts (in addition to the Chinese act, there was of course the harlequin act that garnered raves). Much later, he did stand-up on cruise ships. All of these were successful. But, he did not have the personal drive to be a full-time performer. Indeed, during his most active years he made most of his income by cutting silhouettes -- which he did with superb skill.
But what do those choices have to do with anything in this discussion? In any given field, there will be a small number of people who innovate to the point that they change the course of that field. Dai Vernon was to magic what Marcel Duchamp was to painting. Does that excuse his shortcomings? No. But it renders them a side issue in the exploration of his life's work.
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#163753 - 04/19/08 08:49 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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Glenn Bishop
Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 423
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Or: "[W]ithout his published works ... Magicians may not have remembered him."
Yep. And without the published works of the majority of authors, they wouldn't be remembered. What is the point of that statement?
I will be glad to answer that question with my opinion. Vernon is remembered by the "magic community" in my opinion "mostly" for his published works.
He is not remembered by the lay audience.
Few magicians are remembered by the lay audience the exception of the time might be Houdini.
In my opinion magicians that publish are remembered more by magicians than the magician performers of that day that did not publish. Also in my opinion Vernon is remembered by magicians because a lot of what he published was great.
Many magicians that do the cups and balls today were influenced and inspired by the Dai Vernon Cups and balls routine. And many magicians started learning the cups and balls - with Dai Vernon's routine.
Now, having said that as time moves on - we get older there will be less and less people that got to see Dai Vernon do his routine live in a performance of a show.
Yes there is some taped footage - but that is not the same as seeing the man do it live in a show.
I knew Don Alan quite well and I remember being in a conversation with another magician a few years after Don passed away. The magician I was talking to said something like - "There are a lot of magicians doing the Don Alan chop cup routine and never got to see Don Alan do it."
Yet it is my opinion that there are many magicians that do the Don Alan chop cup today that never even heard of Don Alan.
That was "very" true of my dads rope tie effect. There are many magicians that do my dads trick today - that never heard of Billy Bishop - that is until they meet me!
By the way Billy Bishop did not publish. He was a "performer" and did comedy magic in the "top" night clubs of his day. He also performed on television. He did not publish and if I wasn't in magic and in "the business" he would have been forgotten.
Magicians that publish have a better chance of being remembered by magicians.
Just my opinion!
Edited by Glenn Bishop (04/19/08 08:59 PM)
_________________________
Bish The Magish
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#163764 - 04/20/08 03:11 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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To refer to the above discussions as revisionism is a stretch...and a very long thin one at that, as any revisionist historian will tell you.
There are indeed many of us who rely on published works to form our impressions. Thirty five years ago, I managed to procure a copy of Vernons Symphony of the Spheres, a splendid 6 ring routine. Now, when the Vernon chronicles ( his life and not his actual routines) are being written up, as readers all we ask for is that the complete picture of the man is painted. And sorry if that hurts.
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#163771 - 04/20/08 09:04 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Glenn Bishop
Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 423
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There are indeed many of us who rely on published works to form our impressions.
Vernon did his Harlequin act in the "Rainbow Room" 1939. That was a high class night club venue. I don't think that there are many magicians around today that got to see that performance.
Most of us read the story that is published about it.
I have memory of Vernon doing the cups and balls and the linking rings at his lecture. I never saw him perform these classic tricks in a show - and in my opinion a memory of that would be a lot different than my memory of him doing the rings and the cups and balls at his lecture.
In my opinion some magicians are remembered for their performance and some for their - or because of their published works.
Just my opinion.
_________________________
Bish The Magish
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#163775 - 04/20/08 10:52 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Jim Martin
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 179
Loc: St. Louis
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...One of the exercises you do in an acting conservatory is work with masks. Wearing a mask onstage is liberating in a way that is difficult to explain beyond the obvious "it allows you to hide while performing" thing because it covers your face. It also has the ability to completely transform the person under the mask.
The person under the mask is more free in their performance.
I'm not sure of the audience's fascination in seeing a fake Oriental magician, but I'm reminded that one of Sir Laurence Olivier's later roles involved wearing an exact replica of his own nose. He said the audience never even knew of its existence, yet he felt completely different and it enabled him to become the character.
...........kinda like when I use a thumb tip 
_________________________
Jim Martin
St. Louis MO
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#163821 - 04/21/08 09:32 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jim Martin]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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Some might argue that what makes a person who they are is what gives meaning to their work.
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#163837 - 04/21/08 11:23 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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I think a person's spouse and children might argue that point.
Exactly, especially in the arts. This notion was touched upon in the Leipzig quote about being fooled by a gentleman.
A couple of questions that almost made my interview list were "What item does your family most request you to perform at family gatherings?" and "What items do you most enjoy sharing with your family?"
On the lighter side one might also wonder if something like: "if you can't fool yourself how can you expect to fool others?" has a place in our knowlegebase?
How's this for a signature: Read my text, no new data.
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#163885 - 04/21/08 04:58 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jonathan Townsend]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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The man was a sadist. Abracadabra, and see, the icon is melting away.
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#163889 - 04/21/08 05:04 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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The man was a sadist. Abracadabra, and see, the icon is melting away.
I have not heard or read a report from anyone who knew him that he derived pleasure in and from the pain of others.
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#163910 - 04/21/08 08:55 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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Glenn Godsey
Registered: 03/22/08
Posts: 58
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I am baffled by the revisionism regarding Dai Vernon that seems to crop up about once a year.
The Professor was a genius, whose influence on magic was and is pervasive, arguably beyond that of any other person during the 20th century....
I am with you, Max. I am amazed at the hear-say stories propagated by people who were never even in the same room with Vernon, and some who never even studied his work.
It seems to me that this is a sort of anti-intellectual resentment of genius...
Glenn Godsey
Edited by Glenn Godsey (04/21/08 09:38 PM)
Edit Reason: too rude
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#163930 - 04/22/08 03:07 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Michael Kamen]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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I often wondered why Vernon was derogotary towards Michael Ammar, defenitely one of the greatest teachers, mentors and entertainers of our time. Was it because he felt threatened in his freebie in situ residency at the Castle? Fair enough, but enough is enough.
As I was the one who placed the original posting, I respectfully submit that this subject now be closed. The original posting was in response to a Genii article and Vernons supposed striving for excellence, warped as it may have been. My plea to those recording our annals of history is to present a balanced picture. Otherwise history has a funny way of doing it for you.
Now lets get back to the magic shall we? Did I show you this trick with.......................
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#163931 - 04/22/08 04:16 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Max Maven
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 50
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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The man was a sadist. Abracadabra, and see, the icon is melting away.
And that is precisely the revisionism to which I was referring.
Whoever you are, "000", you have no idea what you're talking about.
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#163933 - 04/22/08 04:36 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Michael Kamen]
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JimChristianson
Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 64
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Anybody seen the Nova presentation on the life of Einstein? They make a womanizing ne'er do well out of him.
Off-topic, but still interesting: In Shelley Winter's autobiography, she tells of her days as a struggling young actress, and her friendship with another struggling young actress, Marilyn Monroe. As young people often do, they fantasized about whom they'd like to have sex with. Einstien was on Marilyn's list.
Years later, Shelley visited Marilyn, and on MM's piano was a framed picture of Albert on which he had written something along the lines of "Thanks for making an old man happy."
E=MacDaddy2!!!
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#163940 - 04/22/08 05:46 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Nope mate, these are the words uttered by the Chief Genii. ( in his thread) Know who he is? Also a revisionist perhaps?
Get over it and get on with it.
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#163943 - 04/22/08 06:29 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Max Maven]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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And one more thing Max....
Ive read that youve lived in walking distance of the Castle half your life....no doubt as a frequent visitor Vernon recognized your ( vast!...and I mean that sincerely) innovative talent and you were then one of his approved people..... Back in the threads, you can see that I did say sorry that it hurts, but you dont want to let it lie. Obviously didnt know how much it hurts.
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#163947 - 04/22/08 08:10 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Cugel]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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000- to be kindly about this and I hope not too blunt, the issue of Vernon as icon is not so much about his work as about those who seek icons.
There are those who cannot celebrate the works of another without recourse to infatuation. The person was. The works are recorded. The person is remembered by their peers, students and (sadly we are plagued with cultists) those who look to a person for more iconic reasons.
We have a social practice of devaluating the self in favor of creating fictions which can then be used for economic and political purposes. Addressing this issue by way of iconoclasm is about as useful as attempting to cure a smoker's cancer by explaining to them that smoking can lead to cancer.
Perhaps its enough to recognize that those who don't wish to see are hiding their eyes for what they feel are good reasons and until you know their reasons it's not so useful to tell them about what they work so hard to not see.
How about finding what you like in the guy's works and seeing how you can incorporate that into your own work. 
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#163949 - 04/22/08 08:44 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jonathan Townsend]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Wise words Jonothan
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#164111 - 04/24/08 02:14 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Just to reply further to you Jonathan. What has always struck me ( personally) from his teachings is the importance of routining. Take his 6 ring routine for example....every single move is nuanced, has a reason, to naturally take you to the next step in the routine. Perhaps others would like to share what positive influences Vernon has had on them and how they have incorporated that into their own work ?
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#164133 - 04/24/08 10:43 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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El Mystico
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 454
Loc: Leamington Spa
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OOO, you say you started this thread as a plea for the historians to present a balanced picture.But the book that details his biography is the Ben book, and that holds no punches on Vernon the man.
As for his performance, it is such a pity that most of the filmed material we have of him is of a fairly old man. When you go back to the earliest of these - and I'm thinking of the slow motion card vanish and such like, you really get a sense that the guy was probably a very good performer.
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#164136 - 04/24/08 12:09 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: El Mystico]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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The thread was in response to the April Genii article. As for the book by Ben it was superb, Vol 2 most eagerly awaited
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#164162 - 04/24/08 04:05 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Michael Kamen]
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Brandon Hall
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 138
Loc: North Hollywood, CA
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Michael, They didn't make a "...womanizing ne'er do well out of him". he did that. They simply revealed a different side of the MAN. People are complicated.
_________________________
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"
P. Townshend
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#164199 - 04/25/08 01:05 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: John LeBlanc]
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Robert Allen
Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 557
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Tearing down ones idols seems to be part and parcel with magicians. Houdini did it to Robert Houdin, Randi did it to Geller (which I always thought strange given that Randi seemed to do his best to relieve Houdini's life.) Now people are doing it to Vernon. I have not followed the whole debacle closely since I don't care for National Enquirer-levels of scholarship or writing, but I sincerely believe it's some inherent trait of loathed humanity that we make ourselves feel better about ourselves by tearing down our former heroes.
I met Vernon once, for about 5 minutes. I was probably about 16. In those few moments I was invigorated to continue studying magic and he made me feel very welcome even though I was intruding on his lunch at the Castle. Maybe he wasn't the greatest role model in the world in some ways (or, maybe he was, since I personally have no firsthand knowledge to gainsay his ways). But that doesn't mean he wasn't good at what he did. Or that he wasn't a lot better at it than most of us around here.
We can have our accurate history with adding to it our personal efforts to tear down the historical figures.
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#164201 - 04/25/08 01:51 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Robert Allen]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Randi had every right to expose Geller for the skilled magician that he is.....along with the fake psychic healers and dealers.
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#164209 - 04/25/08 07:34 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Robert Allen]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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I believe Robert hit the nail and the nerve with those two words "loathed humanity".
Tearing down ones idols seems to be part and parcel with magicians. ...I sincerely believe it's some inherent trait of loathed humanity that we make ourselves feel better about ourselves by tearing down our former heroes...
Such is IMHO exactly the opposite of magic - and even if done in private as part of ones early education in the practice such behavior serves neither the magician nor the craft.
At some point it serves to simply accept that ones elders are human, that the revered ones of times long past were human and it is that very humanity which makes them worthy of the respect for all they've accomplished. Their actions had consequences and knowing more about their choices and actions can lead to a greater understanding of them in their context from which one may learn and so perhaps make informed choices and take effective action in ones own context.
This "tear down idols" thing is a double edged sword working against us. First, to forget that the statues we make have feet of clay loses the connection to that which we aspire. Second, to destroy that which serves us and others diminishes us and others.
If you really believe you are what you eat just say moo and watch out for the mint jelly.
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#164210 - 04/25/08 07:40 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jonathan Townsend]
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El Mystico
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 454
Loc: Leamington Spa
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ooo - where was Vernon derogatory towards Ammar? - I'm aware of his criticism of Ammar's Triumph handling on Revelations - but there he also praises his Shadow Coins. Was he critical elsewhere too?
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#164410 - 04/29/08 12:58 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: El Mystico]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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El Mystico..apologies for the delay. I remember Vernon being critical of Ammars early instructional videos as a teaching/learning tool , not referring to specifics.
On an unrelated note I am sad to have learnt of the death of a colleague, Prof Kevin Rochford of Cape Town,South Africa, 63 years old, a native Australian who had been married for 3 weeks, member of The Cape Magicians Society and supporter of the College of Magic....senselessy murdered outside his home one week ago..... Mandelas magic has sadly dissipated. RIP.
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#164412 - 04/29/08 03:51 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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El Mystico
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 454
Loc: Leamington Spa
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That's awful! I was in Cape Town last autumn, such a beautiful place, it seemed far safer than Johannesburg.
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#168799 - 06/24/08 02:17 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: El Mystico]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Thanks El Mystico
Im a bit surprised by the lack of condolences for a slain colleague. His murderers are still at large and no arrests have been made.
Regarding the Professor I have a question
According to Karl Johnson, in his book The Magician and the Cardsharp Vernon enjoyed hookers, or what he liked to call 'ladies of negotiable affections' and that these were probably arranged by magicians from the Castle. Question
Which magician/s were these?
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#168815 - 06/24/08 08:44 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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South Africa's social struggle toward stability - Vernon's visitors... not usually a good idea to stir the embers with ones wand.
Edited by Jonathan Townsend (06/24/08 08:46 AM)
Edit Reason: exspelling ?
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#168817 - 06/24/08 08:55 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Jonathan Townsend]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Ok
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#168825 - 06/24/08 10:33 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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Jonathan--don't squash the conversation.
Yes, Vernon was fond of hookers.
Cool - so maybe we have a new book about Vernon's tricks in the works?
Might be a story in there of a guy in a castle kept happy by his acolytes who traded ... Thanks. Filed for presentation frames to explore.
Edited by Jonathan Townsend (06/24/08 10:40 AM)
Edit Reason: iconoclasm?
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#168833 - 06/24/08 11:30 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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David Ben
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 111
Loc: New York
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Richard, do you have any evidence to support the claim that Vernon was "fond of hookers" or is it just hearsay?
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#168886 - 06/24/08 07:29 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Bill Wheeler
Member
Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 171
Loc: Downers Grove, IL
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I am fairly certain that this advice was also mentioned in the Ricky Jay article in "The New Yorker" as well.
_________________________
Driver: Callaway FT-5
Irons: Titlest AP-1
Wedges: Vokey 52,58,64
Putter: i-series Black #9
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#168925 - 06/25/08 02:52 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Bill Wheeler]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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The Professor, desirous of getting his rocks of, wanders down Hollywood Boulevard and settles for the charms of Devine Brown( Sen), not cheap at $200 per jazzy routine. After lovingly stroking her fingers and impressing her with a jazzy card routine it climaxes with a rendition of Cutting the Queens. After returning for 5 days in a row she is now intrigued and asks him where he is from. 'New York' actually he replies. 'Me too' she says. 'I know' , he says 'your uncle Harry passed and his widow asked me to give you a $1000'
Ps with due apologies to Hugh Grant and hideous poor taste!
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#168966 - 06/25/08 01:25 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Roger M.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 278
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Geez, nobodies perfect, and I know folks are interested in history....but do we HAVE to run Dai through the muck just to feed our presumed need to be "honest" with one another, and history?
I couldn't care less IF, or HOW Vernon got laid....I really couldn't.
And regardless of how accurate this information is supposed to be, it's still just rumor and innuendo as I doubt Vernon had anybody following him taking pictures and recording for history his whereabouts as he made one of his presumed mythical walks down Hollywood Blvd.
(I tend to look to David Ben for my facts on Vernon. Whether Ben's observations reflect on Vernon positively or negatively, at least I know they're based on solid research).
Edited by Roger M. (06/25/08 01:30 PM)
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#169030 - 06/26/08 01:55 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Roger M.]
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000
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 462
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Apologies Roger, it was a JOKE, with upfront apologies for bad taste. But Im sure youve heard a few Hugh Grant or Lewinsky jokes doing the rounds...
Point is this
Vernon has traits shared with many other creative, compulsive obsessive, dysfunctional inviduals, namely that of the GENIUS.
And whilst I also look forward to David Ben Vol 2, covering the Castle years, are you implying that Karl Johnson got his facts wrong?
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#169049 - 06/26/08 08:29 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: 000]
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Don Stachowiak
Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 30
Loc: Maryland, USA
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How fortunate we are, that those among us who are perfect are willing to take the time and trouble to judge the rest of us, who, like the Professor, may in some ways fall short of the mark.
Don
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#169059 - 06/26/08 09:56 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Jonathan Townsend
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
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For the benefit of those too young to know - the social process of making legends or icons also involves taking stock of and finding ways to manage their personal issues - simply because those who wish to profit from the legend/icon need to ensure their cash cow's milk won't be curdled by any sudden public awareness of things less than laudable.
IMHO the notion of conjurers having this as an issue rather than exploring it to find where or how it effected the magic is sad. Art has to come from somewhere. Knowing where is part of respecting the artist. Trivializing the where or the how seems disrespectful to both the artist and their work.
Edited by Jonathan Townsend (06/26/08 10:01 AM)
Edit Reason: Or we could explore 120 days at the castle...
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#169060 - 06/26/08 09:59 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Disparity1
Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 57
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Those held in higher esteem, or who are public figures, are also scrutinized more closely.
The scrutiny wouldn't be that bad a thing if it weren't for that tabloid mentality, where the ONLY thing some people want to discuss are what they perceive as flaws. It's like: "Yeah, yeah...most influential magician who ever lived...yeah, yeah...brilliant artist...yeah, yeah, I get it...but what did he like to do with his dick?"
Frankly, I don't see that it serves that much purpose. Yes, it's important to understand the man as a whole, but to make these particular characteristics the primary focus of one's attention seems pretty...distasteful.
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#169092 - 06/26/08 01:14 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Disparity1]
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Roger M.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 278
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Generally, if you're on the ball enough to be investigating a written history of Vernon's life, you probably have somewhat of an intelligent outlook on a variety of things in general.
A simple "Vernon loved the ladies" gets the point across, and doesn't get into sordid details which inhabit far more peoples lives than they generally let on themselves.
Which ladies Vernon loved, and whether he compensated them with hard cash or dinner at the Magic Castle isn't really required in general conversation about Vernon.
I'm no prude, and I'm not trying to say folks CAN'T talk about it.....I'm just askin' out loud, considering at this point it's all innuendo and anecdotal in nature, do we really have to?
Edited by Roger M. (06/26/08 01:15 PM)
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#169153 - 06/27/08 12:58 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: amp]
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Don Stachowiak
Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 30
Loc: Maryland, USA
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IMHO the notion of conjurers having this as an issue rather than exploring it to find where or how it effected the magic is sad. Art has to come from somewhere. Knowing where is part of respecting the artist. Trivializing the where or the how seems disrespectful to both the artist and their work.
Once again, JT cuts to the chase.
Vernon's neglect of his family, his intolerance for anything short of perfection, and his occasional bullying of those who sought him as a mentor, can be seen as evidence of the obsession that drove him and made him what he eventually became, arguably the single most influential figure in 20th Century closeup magic.
As for whether or not Vernon enjoyed the attentions of what someone referred to as "ladies of negotiable affections", I can only say that I would not be particularly surprised, or offended, to learn that an older man, who evidently had difficulty maintaining a functional marriage, might occasionally seek intimate contact with the opposite sex in other places. Dai Vernon was probably not immune to loneliness.
Don
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#169236 - 06/28/08 08:27 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Don Stachowiak]
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Barbara Balducci
Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 10
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I don't see what Vernon's sex life has to do with his magic. I doubt it had any affect on his magic. If anything, I would say that his obsession with magic affected his sex life. I understand that human nature is such that people are often curious about every aspect of the life of someone they have made into an icon, and that for some there is a need to tear down the idol. Because I wasn't particularly interested in his magic, I saw him not as an icon, or even as a magician. I just saw him as a person who did magic.
Until he moved to California, Dai spent a lot of time at our house in New York. He would often come for dinner, play around on the big Wurlitzer organ we had, play chess and talk magic with my father, often until daylight. In the winter, if we had a heavy snowfall while he was there and the snow plow buried his car, he would stay with us for 3 or 4 days. He was always a gentleman. I never heard any talk of ladies of any kind. He always seemed more consumed by magic than anything else. If he spoke of ladies with my father after my mother and I went to bed, I never heard about it. That's not to say that I question the veracity of others who say he enjoyed the company of hookers. Certainly, "ladies of negotiable affections" sounds like something he would say. Clearly, he wasn't suited to marriage or a committed relationship, so unless he was asexual, paid female companionship seems the logical, and perhaps even the honorable choice.
As for Dai ending up like Frances Carlye - I doubt it. Not because he was a better man than Frances was, but because he always had an "angel" - someone with money who was willing to look after him.
French proverb: “Few people rise to our esteem upon closer scrutiny.”
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#169242 - 06/28/08 12:27 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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David Alexander
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1273
Loc: Aurora IL
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Vernon was not a hero. He was a clever man who followed his own obsessions and compulsions. He was an excellent technician, a fine silhouette artist, and a clever innovator in our odd little craft.
Having seen him work for the public several times it was clear he had a limited knowledge of stage craft.
He was a poor husband and father and did not always treat his friends and admirers as well as they deserved and may have played Jennings and Cervon against each other for little to no reason. He drank too much.
I never saw him as anything more than what he was, which can be summed up in a quote from Flags of Our Fathers (which may have originated with Tolstoy) “...we create heroes because we need them...there are no heroes, only men."
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#169249 - 06/28/08 01:57 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Sebastien L.
Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
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Ahh nuts, I guess I'll finally have to subscribe.
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#169251 - 06/28/08 03:01 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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Bill Duncan
Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 1242
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Those held in higher esteem, or who are public figures, are also scrutinized more closely.
And that’s probably fair, and as it should be, as long as the scrutiny applies to the reason they are famous.
For historical accuracy, a good bio should not shy away from personal information which might inform the reader/student of the world view of the subject being analyzed. I wouldn’t argue in favor of hiding the fact that the president was confined to a wheelchair for example, but spending a day talking about his disability seems to be missing whatever meaning the man was able to bring to his own life.
I guess is depends on what you are interested in. If you’re interested in magic, Vernon’s life’s work is a very interesting study. If you are interested in womanizing there are folks who are way more interesting than Vernon.
It seems to me that public conversation, about a public figure, should probably focus on the things that made that person famous, and esteemed.
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#169259 - 06/28/08 05:59 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Richard Kaufman]
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El Mystico
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 454
Loc: Leamington Spa
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When I read Richard's post about the August issue, I thought - it is true - we really do live in the best of all possible worlds. then I turned from my computer screen and thought 'oh, nuts'.
Now, David Alexander's post intrigued me. Hsving seen him work for the public? David - forgive me, because i know nothing about you. when did you see him work for the public? You see, I've only ever seen him on film, and, certainly,as an example, the cups and balls I've seen the old Vernon perform were too fast; however, the earliest film I've seen is the recently released Magic Factory film; which, to me, gives hints as to what he was like at his prime - and I've read reports of his prime which suggest he was very good.
Are you referring to the work he did when he was past his prime? Or are you saying that even at his best, he didn't understand stage craft?
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#169260 - 06/28/08 06:17 PM
Re: The Professor
[Re: El Mystico]
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Roger M.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 278
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Are you referring to the work he did when he was past his prime? Or are you saying that even at his best, he didn't understand stage craft?
It's hard to imagine a person not liking the stage spending any amount of time refining their understanding of stagecraft.
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#169291 - 06/29/08 11:10 AM
Re: The Professor
[Re: Roger M.]
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David Alexander
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1273
Loc: Aurora IL
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El Mystico(Dominic)
Fair enough….my credentials, if you will (and briefly) – I was fortunate in having had lessons as a kid with Jay Ose, the first Resident Magician at the Magic Castle. I was also friends with, and had lessons from, Ozzie Malini (Max’s son) and Charlie Miller. Indeed, I recreated Malini’s production of a block of ice one afternoon as a surprise for Charlie who wrote a nice note in my copy of Expert Card Technique testifying to that fact.
I did not hang around amateurs much, spending most of my formative years in magic with professionals such as Bill Chaudet, Kirk Kirkham, and Harry Mendoza. My real education came when Frakson chose me to be his apprentice. I spent over seven years with him, learning the ins and outs of advanced stage craft and the little, unpublished techniques of walking on a stage and successfully using magic as a medium for an entertaining personality. I learned all that in addition to Frakson’s unpublished repertoire of effects that he had been refining for decades. (Jack Benny once told me that Frakson showed him how to walk on a stage.)
I also had the pleasure of being Frakson’s guest at several lunches of old vaudeville performers who would occasionally offer advice and tips. It was a unique and invaluable education.
I was one of the first magicians to work a restaurant in Los Angeles, working for the Trader Vic Organization in the late 1960s at their Century City restaurant. (The pay was three times what the Castle was paying at the time.) I was there for almost three years and regularly entertained Hollywood royalty such as Norma Shearer, James Coburn, Danny Kaye, and others.
I was the first magician/entertainer hired by Princess Cruises when they started their business and later worked for Sitmar Cruises when they started their West Coast operations. I have upwards of half a million miles cruising. I opened the Windjammer Room of the Paraiso Marriott hotel in Acapulco and was there for almost a year. I’ve worked in Japan, the Phillipines, Taiwan, and a host of other countries.
I’ve worked dozens of night clubs in several countries and for decades I worked private parties and corporate events at high-end hotels and country clubs around Southern California. Simply put: beyond knowing how to execute sleights, I know how to walk on a stage and perform and entertain…and I’ve made good money doing it. I also learned early on that if one wanted an exclusive repertoire one did not seek out opportunities to perform for amateurs. Several experiences in my 20s made that clear, so, by design, few amateurs have ever seen me work.
I saw Vernon work for the public several times, both at the Magic Castle and on public stages. When he was in an intimate setting he was quite good and his technique was absolutely masterful (I’ve never seen anyone do a better Top Change). However, the ability to execute sleights in a small setting (or produce creative work) does not automatically mean one knows how to walk on a stage and present an entertaining act.
When I saw Vernon work a large venue it was painfully clear that he had no idea how to walk on a stage and manage his props. This observation had nothing to do with his ability to execute the necessary sleights, which was still at a very high level even though he was probably in his early 70s when I saw him. It had to do with stage craft which is something that should have been learned early and never forgotten. To the old-time pros, it is like breathing…done automatically and without thinking. It was clear that Vernon had never learned this aspect of presenting magic.
One example may suffice: Vernon performed on the It’s Magic show, introduced as “The Teacher of Magicians.” He walked out in One with a book and a cane. The cane became a table base and the book became the table top. There was no place to put the Linking Rings, so he bent down and leaned them against the cane. They slid to the stage. He bent down and straightened them and the rings slid down again. He did this three or four times, all the while the audience is waiting for his act to start.
He performed his Coins and Glass routine which is very pretty, but suitable for a parlor or small stage, not a venue that seats over 1200 people. The people in the first few rows doubtless enjoyed it. No one else in the theater could see what was going on. (By contrast, Frakson did the Miser’s Dream on the same stage and everyone knew what was happening. I will present another example of Vernon’s lack of stagecraft in an up-coming Genii article on Frakson that I’m just finishing up.)
I saw Vernon in Santa Barbara completely screw up one of his signature pieces, the Cups and Balls. The ending was bobbled badly with the large balls suddenly appearing well before the end of the routine. After the show I asked him what happened. His instant response: “I was drunk.”
It should be pointed out that Vernon lived through the “Golden Age of Magic” when there were hundreds, if not thousands of magicians working professionally and semi-professionally at various levels - from two-a-day and five-a-day vaudeville to nightclubs and private engagements, from society parties to children’s birthday parties. Vernon chose to make the bulk of his income from cutting silhouettes rather than as a full-time working professional theatrical entertainer. He chose to become a “magician’s magician” rather than a theatrical performer for a variety of reasons, one of which is that he did not have the discipline. That is not to fault him, as few have the necessary qualifications.
I have no argument that he was highly influential in amateur magic, but he was not, by any reasonable criteria, a theatrical performer and should not be looked upon as some sort of ultimate authority in all things magic as some would seem to want him to be.
As much as I loved Frakson (who was light years beyond Vernon as a theatrical magician and entertainer), I always saw him as a man, not a hero. I can do no less, and certainly no more, with regards to Vernon.
Edited by David Alexander (06/29/08 11:11 AM)
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