I received the below email today from Mr Derek Lever. I had for many a while heard of an infamous "blacklist" but did not possibly believe that in this day & age it could actually exist. How little did I know.
Let this be a warning to everyone that if you dare voice an opinion that is contrary to that of Mr Lever - you face sanction. Mr Lever does not only disapprove of my right to voice an opinion - but attempted to censor the 'online media' and have my posts on the subject matter removed from the LinkingPage.com and other locations. Unsuccessful in his attempts - he has now deemed me to be 'persona non grata' and due to the inherent danger that Blackpool now offers to my personal 'safety' - I have been banned. Considering that I have just visited Communist China, I am beginning to question who exactly is living in a totalitarian regime ?
As President of FISM 2012 - Mr Lever is tasked with enhancing, promoting, and developing the Art of Magic - both at home and abroad. If this is how he chooses to exercise his role in the run up to the event - I would be extremely concerned. Perhaps it would be wise to read the teachings of Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
"Dear Sir
After reading your various postings over the last few years it is quite obvious you intensely dislike Blackpool, Blackpool Magicians' Convention, Blackpool Magicians' Club and F.I.S.M. Blackpool.
Your pathetic rantings have evoked a great deal of anger both within and outside the magic fraternity and it is quite apparent that our security staff would not be able to guarantee your safety at the 2010 Blackpool Convention. We have today refunded the £90.,00 charged to your credit card and must advise you that the tickets sent to you are no longer valid. You are henceforth persona non grata and no longer welcome at Blackpool Magicians' Convention.
Derek Lever Convention Organiser Blackpool Magicians Club "
Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 6343
Loc: Southern California
I accept the right of a business to deny service to anyone. What I find interesting is what I read as a stunning indictment by Mr. Lever against either the residents of Blackpool, the convention attendees, and/or his own staff (or all of the above):
“… anger both within and outside the magic fraternity and it is quite apparent that our security staff would not be able to guarantee your safety at the 2010 Blackpool Convention.”
I think Mr. Lever would have been better served just to say that he didn’t like you and didn’t want you at his convention. Instead, he suggests that someone living in, working in, or working and/or attending the convention at Blackpool might cause you harm because of your opinion.
And it begs the question; will you be attending the 2012 FISM?
Crime and vigilantism is clearly now a problem in Blackpool. While I am most appreciative of Mr Lever's concern for my safety - I am happy to report that I should be able to resolve his concerns ... I will be employing private security for the duration of my stay in Blackpool. I then need not fear that the residents of Blackpool, the convention attendees, and/or his own staff may cause me harm.
Anyone that wants admin log in for the blog let me know. Let's see just how many people we can get banned from the convention! Like a little challenge.
Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 118
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Originally Posted By: Richard Hart
Wow is right. I was seriously planning a trip to the next FISM and bringing my trophy wife along so we could tour the British Isles afterward.
But if what I just read is true, I doubt I'll be in attendance either. Obviously, the convention is being organized by children. Not a good sign.
Aside from the trophy wife (my trophy wife would kill me for referring to her as such) this is exactly why I meant by wow.
I'll wait to hopefully hear the proverbial other side of the story but as it stands I must unfortunately rethink attending FISM under his management. Shame especially with this the first in an english speaking country.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
This must be the most ironic thing ever posted on the GENII forum.
Craig has been pretty clear in his utter disdain for all things Blackpool. Fair enough. He is entitled to his opinion. From his comments, my assumption was he had stopped going.
But no, in spite of all his negative feelings Craig registered for Blackpool 2010. Why would anyone want to continually return to anyplace that upsets them so much?
Still, in spite of being made unwelcome, Craig is going anyway.
He should be sponsored by Blackpool Tourism:
"The man who hates Blackpool so much he cannot stay away!"
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 12213
Loc: Washington DC
I wonder if the rules of FISM itself allow people to be banned for no good reason other than expressing an opinion--a right that is protected speech in the UK (I assume). I'll be contacting Eric Eswin for an informed decision about this. It seems outrageous to me. Craig, I think you might be able to find an attorney or rights group in the UK to take your case pro bono, because this certainly deserves a lawsuit since it infringes on your rights. You may be a picky bastard, however you are still a person with rights. Denial of service requires a valid reason.
FISM can't ban Craig from attending, and likely will "un-ban" him as soon as they either see this thread, or have enough time to think about the consequences.
FISM isn't your local burger joint, deciding they won't serve you because you don't have a shirt on.......it's the world body associated with magic clubs in each country represented.
Either way, the local organizing group has already displayed their hand, and now have the appearance of a bunch of babies who've been tasked with putting on a FISM event.
If satisfaction isn't achieved for Craig, it sounds like he should contact FISM as a international body, and if satisfaction isn't achieved at that point.......then FISM becomes an instant joke and a bit of a laughing stock.
This is very risky playmaking on the part of the Blackpool FISM folks, and to date Craig hasn't indicated that his style is to "give up and go away".
Please keep us informed Craig, this doesn't deserve to be shoved under the bed, which will likely be FISM's first response to the issue.
Reading Mr Lever's letter to me - the security concerns appear to surround the Blackpool 2010 event and that I am "no longer welcome at Blackpool Magicians' Convention."
As such - I assume I have been banned from the Blackpool Magicians Convention only. Unfortunately for Mr Lever I do not believe it is within his rights to ban an official delegate of the General Assembly from attending FISM. Especially for so heinous a crime as freedom of speech.
Having said that - any threat of a tourist being physically assaulted in Blackpool is a matter of grave concern and should be reported to the police. If vigilantism is as large a problem as Mr Lever makes out - we need to question whether other visitors to Blackpool in 2010 or FISM 2012 may be at risk ?
What is interesting from a consumer rights perspective, is that the Blackpool Magicians Club Ltd ( a for profit company ) did take my money and did send my entrance tickets many months ago. From that perspective a valid contract has been concluded. Now discriminating against a customer for no apparent legitimate reason in law - may indeed call for further examination of their trading standards.
Despite Mr Lever's ill-feelings towards me, I have extended an open invitation for him to visit at any time. I would value the opportunity to officially meet him in person and guarantee a warm welcome.
Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 172
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Roger M.
FISM can't ban Craig from attending
I think they can. The dutch magician André Du Lord voiced some critizism against FISM in 1976, and instantly got banned from attending. Dagens Nyheter, a big Swedish morning paper, asked about the incident, and Hank Vermeyden answered: "The people who get banned are primitive and uneducated people who speaks about things they know nothing about." (Dagens Nyheter, August 1, 1976).
Similar things happened in Sweden in 2006, as well.
Edited by Tom Stone (08/22/0911:34 AM)
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Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
Originally Posted By: Tom Frame
Originally Posted By: Quentin Reynolds
Why would anyone want to continually return to anyplace that upsets them so much?
I imagine that he does so because he loves magic.
Tom, I love magic too, and there are literally hundreds of conventions around the world I could attend. If one upset me, I'd simply go elsewhere.
If I come to your psychotherapy practice as a patient and tell you that I attend a convention every year and so detest the place that I feel compelled to complain about it on multiple internet forums, yet I still want to go back, what would you advise?
I suspect you might draw me towards two conclusions. One, accept it for what it is, deal with it and quit moaning. Two, Stop going there.
Otherwise aren't we heading towards a version of Battered Wives Syndrome?
For those of a legal bent, I have just been advised by an attorney that I am entitled to ignore the repudiation and insist on keeping the contract alive. Should they fail to adhere to the terms of the registration, their repudiation of the contract amounts to a distinct form of breach and potentially makes the Blackpool Magicians Club Ltd liable for specific performance or consequential damages ( non-refundable hotels, flights etc. which amount into the thousands of dollars )
I think they can. "The people who get banned are primitive and uneducated people who speaks about things they know nothing about." (Dagens Nyheter, August 1, 1976).
Similar things happened in Sweden in 2006, as well.
This type of behavior is dangerous, and from a customers point of view really does just look like children playing with toys.
The liability upon FISM in this instance is present regardless of whether they want to acknowledge it or not.
This is interesting. Up to this point I thought Craig Mitchell was just the Children's Magic Instructor at South Africa's College of Magic.
I never saw him as POWERFUL. Apparently, I was wrong. Clearly, FISM's Thug-In-Chief has recognized Craig for what he is: a man with an opinion and therefore DANGEROUS.
Obviously, Craig can't be allowed to continue expressing his own thoughts to the point that he must be banned from FISM and other associated events at Blackpool as well as his words being censored for the on-line magic community. God knows, we all march in lock-step thought here.
Who knows where the idea of having independently-formed opinions could lead? A free, healthy, and open discussion of problems? Perhaps even, gasp, Democracy? (Apparently that hasn't quite made it to Blackpool, yet.)
Good move on FISM's part to move to shut Craig up. This idea of "speaking one's mind" could spread. Someone else may catch Craig's "disease" and, well, FISM just may crumble under the onslaught of a few people's opinions.
I've heard from many of this "Ban List" and always assumed it was an exaggeration. I guess that this demonstrates the truth of it. I've also been told of a second club in Blackpool that wears as a badge of honor the experience of having been banned from the other. Fascinating. Is there something in the water in Blackpool... wait.. never mind.... forget that I asked... ;-)
Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 6343
Loc: Southern California
I would say that Wittus Witt didn’t really “blast” FISM in his MAGIC article. I know from my own experience that negative comments tend to stand out in even overall positive reviews let alone in those that are mixed, such as Mr. Witt’s piece. As a result, it is the negative that is taken away.
Craig, might the consequential damages they could be responsible for be only the monies paid by you before their barring notice was received by you? Any payments made afterwards they might not be responsible for. I would guess an English lawyer would know. It probably is basic contract law over there.
I find the barrings at FISMs to be revolting. If those barrings can be substantiated with evidence, I would think that a party with a British lawyer could bring that up to the proper authority in England who would contact the Blackpool group and the international FISM body and advise them of whatever consequences if it happens - if it is against British law.
Even if I don't agree with everything Craig writes, his reports are much appreciated and I enjoy them very much.
Before reading about this, I hadn't made up my mind about FISM in Blackpoo. After all, they already have a large convention which I have attended many times (despite the location). So, what can it offer me that I haven't already seen? I know that I wont be spending much time sight seeing, nor will I enjoy a good time at the hotel.
Anyway, this was the final nail in the coffin. I will not be attending anything organized by the Blackpoo club.
i would be EXTREMELY careful with that twitter id.. terms and conditions of twitter state,amongst other things:
"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate or intimidate other Twitter users."
they take things that like extremely seriously.. as would anyone.. firstly impersonating Derek Lever.. secondly the ID was obvisouly set up to fuel this argument (it was set up on the 23rd august 2009)
is it then right to bullying someone electronically? using a system that someone probably doesnt understand or use to impersonate them ?
regardless of the person, the history or anything else, it is not right to use their name and assume there identity to push out statements and comments that appear to be from them.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1139
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: naquada
is it then right to bullying someone electronically? using a system that someone probably doesnt understand or use to impersonate them ?
regardless of the person, the history or anything else, it is not right to use their name and assume there identity to push out statements and comments that appear to be from them.
but I'm glad you removed it.
There are hundreds and hundreds of fake blogs, fake twitter accounts, fake sites. It's called satire.
I have deleted it because I was asked to by the poor man Lever is bullying. Not because of any moral reason.
It seems that Mr Lever has indeed 'banned' many, many people over the years from his Blackpool Magicians Club. The below was sent to me:
"Derek Lever has banned Alan ( New owner of Tommy Cooper Magic Blackpool) plus all, his Family and friends, Including Alan’s 13 year old daughter who has done no harm to anyone at all, and loves magic, But because of her banning she is not allowed to attend the Blackpool Convention."
There now appears to be a widespread belief that Mr Lever has extended these 'bans' to automatically include FISM 2012. Alan Chester - owner of the Tommy Cooper Magic Shop in Blackpool - writes:
"Anyone banned from blackpool magicians club events and manchester events are also barred from FISM when it comes to blackpool but don't worry folks our shop will still be open and look out for our magic auction at the end of september"
FISM's stated aim is to "enhance, promote and develop the Art of Magic"
I have requested Eric Eswin - FISM's International President - to confirm with Mr Lever that he is indeed NOT attempting to exclude any dealers or registrants from attending FISM 2012 on the basis of Mr Lever's personal ban lists.
FISM is obviously open to any magician worldwide and it is imperative that this be known - especially to those who find themselves on the 'Blackpool Magicians Club banned list'
If you ( or know of anyone who has been banned ) by Derek Lever -and are wishing to attend FISM 2012 either as a delegate or dealer - please contact me mitch@intekom.co.za
Edited by Dustin Stinett (08/24/0912:49 PM) Edit Reason: Awaiting written confirmation per CM
In light of these postings, I think we should all contact our FISM ambassadors and ask that FISM conduct an investigation into these past FISM bans (see Tom Stone's earlier thread) and the past bans at Blackpool and how they may affect the upcoming FISM. The ethics of a FISM host organization should be considered when choosing a FISM site and should be a factor, if necessary, for reversing an earlier decision.
If enough ambassadors are contacted and pushed to speak up, Eric Eswin and the FISM body may have to take action to prevent damage to its reputation and the success of the next World Championship of Magic.
Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 172
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Kenardo
In light of these postings, I think we should all contact our FISM ambassadors and ask that FISM conduct an investigation into these past FISM bans
It is likely that the individuals who have been banned or mistreated will become targets for severe mud-slinging, if questions are asked. It's easier, and less hurtful, to just accept that some of us are not welcome.
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WOW, if only half of this is true, Mr Lever should be ashamed of himself from here to Beijing!
We will see what FISM 2012 will stand for - hopefully not "Feudal Idiots Suppressing Magicians".
A friend of mine I have talked to about this considers entering the next competition in Blackpond - in the "Mental Illness" category - as The Great Dreck Leverage, producing John Milton's Areopagitica from his square circle and slapping it into someone's face... so watch out for him!
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Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 172
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Nathan Muir
Wow, Tom, that's a particularly cowardly approach. Not the way we do things in the free world.
Well, when idealism run into the brick wall of realism, one get a different perspectiv of things. Some fights can not be won.
I spent 1.5 years trying to find out the reason why I was not allowed to compete at FISM2006. Did not get any real explanation, instead I became the target of an extreme mud-slinging that left me more or less alienated from the whole Swedish magic scene. So, yes, I regret that I asked about the reason.
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Wow, Tom, that's a particularly cowardly approach. Not the way we do things in the free world.
Well, when idealism run into the brick wall of realism, one get a different perspectiv of things. Some fights can not be won.
I spent 1.5 years trying to find out the reason why I was not allowed to compete at FISM2006. Did not get any real explanation, instead I became the target of an extreme mud-slinging that left me more or less alienated from the whole Swedish magic scene. So, yes, I regret that I asked about the reason.
Tom, as Sue-Anne and a number of other Aussie magicians will attest to, I was targeted by a fellow Aussie magician because he didn't get a free rego to a convention I was organising several years ago.
(The only people who go to Aussie conventions free are the overseas guest artists).
Anyway, he was President of the local club and started gossiping about me. When I was nominated to join the club more rumours were spread and I was suddenly the anti-christ of Aussie magic. For some reason he and his colleagues got away with saying anything they wanted to about me (discussing fictional versions of my private life, non-existent restraining orders etc) but as soon as I spoke up to defend myself they used that as "evidence" to show how much of a "troublemaker" I was and all the more reason I shouldn't be in the club.
Yes, you're right, there are some fights you cannot win.
In the end a lot of the committee who wanted me to join quit in protest, only to be replaced (without club voting) by this chaps friends. He even changed the clubs constitution to bar me (and Sue-Anne) from joining. (Ironically, the person in question is also on the Blackpool banned list).
So Tom, in a nutshell, I know how you feel.
If one person is running a club or a convention they can bar who they want, they can slander until the cows come home, and still pretend to be operating in the "best interests of the harmony of the club".
However, I disagree that in THIS case, we should accept that some people are not welcome.
FISM 2012 is not, as Derek Lever has made very clear, a Blackpool Convention, it is a FISM event.
In speaking with Derek he seems a very reasonable man (he's even expressed interest in having Ellis & webster appear at FISM 2012 so he has excellent taste *g*) so I can't see how he would even be considering extending his Blackpool bans to FISM 2012.
I'd be very surprised if he doesn't submit a post in here in a day or two clarifying exactly that.
Just accepting this is truly an unwise approach, FISM isn't some little backwater magic show.
From a world-wide perspective, FISM is as big as it gets. Every magician in the world who wants to go, and can afford to go, MUST be able to attend.......really, think about it.
Just to accept that you're "not welcome" at FISM because some ass-hole who's being a bully says you're not welcome isn't on I'm afraid, and Mr. Eswin and the FISM International folks had best deal with this right now, before it snowballs into something they won't have a chance of getting a handle on............it's almost there now, so sooner than later would probably be a good plan.
Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 172
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Tim Ellis
For some reason he and his colleagues got away with saying anything they wanted to about me (discussing fictional versions of my private life, non-existent restraining orders etc) but as soon as I spoke up to defend myself they used that as "evidence" to show how much of a "troublemaker" I was
Yep, identical tactics. And just to illustrate the damage - I heard those rumours about you here in Sweden a few years ago, that's how far it spread.
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For some reason he and his colleagues got away with saying anything they wanted to about me (discussing fictional versions of my private life, non-existent restraining orders etc) but as soon as I spoke up to defend myself they used that as "evidence" to show how much of a "troublemaker" I was
Yep, identical tactics. And just to illustrate the damage - I heard those rumours about you here in Sweden a few years ago, that's how far it spread.
Then you know the man I'm talking about then.
Thankfully, most people know me and dismissed the comments for what they were, rubbish. However, there will always be those who only hear the rumours and - as you know Tom - when mud is thrown some is bound to stick.
All the more reason that bullying tactics should not be tolerated.
"On hearing that Fism 2012 is coming to Blackpool I decided to phone up Arthur Carson of the Blackpool Magic Club with the view to purchasing tickets for Fism. He told me I was still banned for attending Blackpool and an application to attend Fism will have to gobefore the Blackpool Committee which will be meeting in approximately 8 weeks time and they will decide whether I was eligible for a Fism ticket. However, it was express to me that it would be unlikely that I will be able to get a ticket to attend Fism ... "
and
"i have already been told my a member of bmc that anyone derek has barred wiil not be allocated tickets for fism and i have already been refused a dealer booth and a guy who was working for me was told he would not be able to attend either if you know how i and others can get in let me know"
Perhaps this is all just a horrible misunderstanding and Mr Lever did in no way, shape or form intend to 'ban' anyone from attending FISM 2012 and the wrong information was merely communicated to the relevant parties ?
Alternatively - this was Mr Lever's intent all along and only now that this practice has been exposed will he now be made to ensure that FISM is truly an all-inclusive event.
I look forward to obtaining the definitive answer.
"Myself any of my staff family and friends ... I understand has also been barred I have written to BMC for further clarification but have been ignored"
Again - these are messages which I have received. I cannot independently confirm the contents thereof ( I can 100% confirm my banning order from Blackpool ) - but I do believe there is sufficient cause for concern to request an official response and clarification regarding admission for FISM 2012 from Mr Lever.
Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 255
Loc: Tampere, Finland
Evil abounds when good men do nothing! I'll stick with the free-speech supporters, let the nay-Sayers be damned. Keep up the fight, Craig. Dictatorship is not the way to run F.I.S.M.
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 126
Loc: The Emerald Isle
Well FISM 2012 isn't exactly off to a great start is it?
Banning people for voicing their opinion on the town itself isn't exactly great way to gain favour with people or generate good publicity...if I were a member of BMC I would be rather embarrassed by this.
Banning employees and family members because of association with a certain person is utterly ridiculous not to mention childish!
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“Love and magic have a great deal in common. They enrich the soul, and they both take practice.”
I'd be very surprised if he doesn't submit a post in here in a day or two clarifying exactly that.
Last week, I invited Derek to be a guest on the Magic Newswire to promote the upcoming FISM in Blackpool. He has (to date) declined. It is an open invitation and I hope that he reconsiders as I am certain that many would like to hear from him.
Mr Lever attempted to have Paul Daniels expelled from the IBM:
"The story is too long, but basically a man called Derek Lever tried to get me kicked out of the IBM for 'exposing' magic secrets by selling tricks "to non magicians'. I was sitting at the back of the theatre where this AGM was being held and they did not know I was there. I stood up and pointed out that we all started with such magic sets, and as the vast majority of the IBM membership were non magicians anyway, making their living by being carpenters, plumbers, accountants, solicitors and so on, every dealer in the world was doing what Derek Lever was accusing me of. The motion was voted out."
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 3291
Loc: Westchester, NY
What sort of positive intent could be behind such an action?
I'll leave the "vast majority..." comment as its own item for later. For now - what good could come of such an action against the IBM and Paul Daniels?
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
I think this goes back to the very early eighties when there was a lot of controversy about the abundance of Paul Daniels magic kits for sale. A few years before the IBM expelled Pat Page for exposure (of magical secrets) in a magazine. The exposure was outside Pat's control - done by the publishers of The Big Book of Magic, and he was later reinstated.
While nothing to do with the IBM or Derek Lever, Paul did break the cardinal rule of selling magic sets to the public. He had the instructions tested by schoolchildren to make sure they could understand and follow them.
This broke the long standing tradition that magic set instructions should be written so that no one could understand them.
Craig wrote two articles that we posted at Magic Newswire when he sent them to us. Here are the links in case you are interested in what Derek asked us to remove from the site.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
Originally Posted By: Tim Ellis
So was the attempted expulsion BEFORE Derek Lever awarded Paul The Murray Award in 1988?
I can't give you the exact year but I'm pretty sure it was well before the Murray Award. I know that Paul Daniels Magic sets were available in 1983 and the smaller one trick sets came shortly afterwards.
I remember Paul commenting on UK Magic conventions in my interview with him. In addition, when asked about the Blackpool convention for a written interview, his response was:
Paul Daniels: UK conventions were ruined for me by bitchiness and jealousy, which is a real shame because that was where I met so many of my friends. Now I only go to foreign conventions where, to be honest, I am greeted with respect and civility AND I have tons of ‘foreign’ magician friends.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
I think you'll find that Paul is referring to British conventions in general, not Blackpool in particular. For a time that was a lot of jealousy over Paul, especially by magicians who felt that it was they who should have been on TV.
I remember one evening at an IBM convention standing around with a group of magicians as Paul answered questions for about 90 minutes. Ali Bongo was doing his nut saying, "He's giving too much away." To those who would listen the information was pure gold.
After Paul left, I heard one magician say to his friend, "Who does he think he is, the big headed git?"
There was also a controversy in ABRA magazine when Paul wrote a letter about magicians attending his show doing card tricks in the foyer of the theatre. It got quite nasty.
I've never known anyone in the magic profession to be so free and generous with practical commercial information than Paul.
Paul's interview is well worth reading and I add this question and answer which sums up what I've been saying:
Laura: And finally, what is the most valuable bit of advice you have received during your career as a magician? Paul Daniels: From Ken Brooke when I didn’t win a magic competition at a convention: ‘Don’t change son. You’ve got it right for the public, and the silly buggers don’t know.’
Ken Brooke was right and most of the silly buggers still don't know.
Extracts from a letter written by Mr Lever to one of the many people on his banned list:
"We can choose to ban whoever we wish for whatever reason. You ... all staff and business associates of yours are all banned from attending the Convention. We will not be giving any details as to why you are not attending."
Again - if you have been banned or know of anyone who has been banned from Blackpool and are wishing to attend FISM 2012 - please contact me. FISM 2012 offer a great special - book 12 registrations and get 1 free ...
Craig; It seems to me that if you have been banned because your safety can not be assured, then (by implication) everyone else's safety at the convention(s) in Blackpool is assured. Is the BMC opening themselves up to lawsuits from anyone who might be mugged or merely threatened? This could get very expensive for the BMC. I do hope that they are well insured. Jim
You have to love it when Clockwork Orange enters a discussion of magic clubs. Dan Sperry is starting to win me over his side.
I was going to do an Homage to Albert and the Lion as it starts out "There's a famous seaside place called Blackpool, that's noted for fresh air and fun"
But it's far to obscure. But than as we all know, Sometimes the Jokes are Just for Me
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FISM's main priority surely is to promote magic and the magic art ??? To help and to inform, to enlighten and to encourage people to enjoy the world of magic.
Already it's off to a depressing start and it's still over 2 years away !!!
Edited by Razamatazz Magic (08/24/0907:47 PM)
_________________________ http://www.razamatazzmagic.com "I don't understand - it said in the instructions it was fool proof"
is it then right to bullying someone electronically?
Bullying? OK... let's talk bullying... Wouldn't banning someone for having a differing opinion be bullying? Especially when it can be randomly applied to friends and family of the person that has expressed the opinion. I agree with regard to impersonation, but really.... who is the bully in this topic?
I wonder if the rules of FISM itself allow people to be banned for no good reason other than expressing an opinion--a right that is protected speech in the UK (I assume). I'll be contacting Eric Eswin for an informed decision about this. It seems outrageous to me.
I guess it's the same as running an Internet forum. If you run it, you make the rules and you can ban people "for no good reason other than expressing an opinion", or typing in all caps or whatever. Seems analogous to me.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1139
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: Nathan Muir
Originally Posted By: Richard Kaufman
I wonder if the rules of FISM itself allow people to be banned for no good reason other than expressing an opinion--a right that is protected speech in the UK (I assume). I'll be contacting Eric Eswin for an informed decision about this. It seems outrageous to me.
I guess it's the same as running an Internet forum. If you run it, you make the rules and you can ban people "for no good reason other than expressing an opinion", or typing in all caps or whatever. Seems analogous to me.
Nothing like that at all.
One is a private board. Like a private house. Mr K invites us all in here and if we [there was a naughty word here] about he will ban us.
FISM, however, is far from a private house. It is a public space governed by elected officials.
Those elected officials then chose a host every 4 years to put on an event.
If that host acts like a unhinged bully, banning people, dealers and families from attending, I think he shoudl be removed from his position.
I get it. He has run his convention for many years and thinks he is god. He thinks the quasi-power he gets from Blackpoo Magic extends to FISM.
I think he's wrong.
I also think everyone who agrees with me should email the president of FISM and let him know your thoughts.
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Norway/Blackpool UK
I have known Derek Lever for many years now, and I'm really sorry to hear that you have been banned from Blackpool by him, But you must look on the bright side of this, You're now in the elite squad of the MANY magicians that Derek Lever has banned from his gatherings over the past years. If you have been banned from His convention? you can also rest assured that you will also not be welcome at the Blackpool committees new theatre, or to any events or lectures that Derek Lever runs, You will also not be welcome to any of the special auctions that he runs, and you will also not be welcome to have anything to do with the magic club he started in Manchester, the Manchester Circle of Magicians I think it is called. So on this assumption any person he has banned from the Blackpool Convention over the years, And there are many including Myself, all these people will also NOT be allowed to attend F.I.F.M. 2012 In Blackpool. That’s a lot of revenue FISM is going to loose.
The really sad and the worst point in this, is Not only will you have a banning order placed on you, for all of Derek Levers events, but also ALL you're family and if you are a dealer ALL you're staff, will also be banned as well, so if you are banned, Any friends you have must not mention they are you're friends as they will probably also be banned.
This is hard to believe in this small world of magic, that just one person can have so much power to do exactly what he likes or feels like, with absolutely no consideration what so ever of who he hurts,
I do have the feeling that if you carry on with this, you might get this years mention in his convention welcome that he gave to myself in last years Blackpool program. Featured above in this thread He might even do the same to you as he did to me in last years Gala Show, and beam up onto the stage by Giant TV screen for 3200 magicians, A photograph of you with a gun placed to you're head, With the Nike logo below it, and also he placed the wording asking me to blow my brains out in front of everyone.
Lastly I'm not sure if I am allowed to mention this ?, If not I am surethe moderators here on the Geni Forum will take the link away But my full dealings with no holds barred with Mr Derek Lever over all these years, all the details are up on my web site for everyone to read. http://www.cdrmagic.com/info
Cheers CARL DE ROME Also known by Derek Lever as the Uncouth, Illiterate, Big-mouthed, Buffoon, from Norway, Actually I am from Blackpool in England.
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never let others dictate to you,
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1139
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: CARL DE ROME
He might even do the same to you as he did to me in last years Gala Show, and beam up onto the stage by Giant TV screen for 3200 magicians, A photograph of you with a gun placed to you're head, With the Nike logo below it, and also he placed the wording asking me to blow my brains out in front of everyone.
Wow.
So he incited a room full of people to actually kill you.
That is astounding.
Sadly, the link doesn't work, but because I think the /info page isn't actually there. Your main site works fine. Would love to hear the history from your POV.
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 126
Loc: The Emerald Isle
He actually pulled that kind of sick stunt in public?
Utterly appalling. Things like that will scare people off as they'll be worried that they'll do something to provoke him...and then be on the receiving end of his disgraceful bullying.
Hard to believe these are the actions of a grown man as they are things that an 8 year old would find amusing.
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“Love and magic have a great deal in common. They enrich the soul, and they both take practice.”
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
Originally Posted By: CARL DE ROME
He might even do the same to you as he did to me in last years Gala Show, and beam up onto the stage by Giant TV screen for 3200 magicians, A photograph of you with a gun placed to you're head, With the Nike logo below it, and also he placed the wording asking me to blow my brains out in front of everyone.
Maybe my memory is failing me but I don't recall any such happening at the gala show.
I've got to say that as someone completely uninvolved with this that this Mr. Lever sounds completely unhinged and that if the FISM general assembly doesn't act, FISM itself would seem to not be working in the interest of all magicians.
Bullying? OK... let's talk bullying... Wouldn't banning someone for having a differing opinion be bullying? Especially when it can be randomly applied to friends and family of the person that has expressed the opinion. I agree with regard to impersonation, but really.... who is the bully in this topic?
Dodd my comment was 'is it then right...' meaning whatever the disagreement.. is it THEN right for mr goat to set up a twitter account to impersonate someone?
I dont really want to get into this debate more as I was stung by various people in connection with a certain southern convention who attempted to hijack our website/trading-mark for their own ends, threw all sorts of accusations at me and insults because of their 'assumptions'.. I dont (And I know others dont) want to go through that distress and upset again..
that was also bullying, but on the part of people who accused others of bullying.. including at least one person who has posted on this thread.. yet strangely no one said a word about it...
it would actually be nice if everyone got along.. but i'm out of here on this one..
I am confident that once the relevant parties in the organisations have had an opportunity to review this matter - a reasonable way forward will be announced to ensure that no person is unfairly excluded.
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Norway/Blackpool UK
Hello there Mr Goat, ( you're not called Billy are you )
No what he did was…. During the interval of the Gala Show up on the Giant screen, on the stage of the Opera House In Blackpool, this is the Biggest theatre in Europe,
I was informed by many magicians that he beamed a head and shoulders promotional photograph of myself up onto the stage with a revolver to my head, and underneath this he put the words, “Go on then I dare you, Pull the trigger,” then after a few minutes later it changed to “Come on then do it, do it. I dare you “ If I had attended this convention myself I would have been up onto the stage personally to sort it out myself, Unfortunately I only found out about this, and his wordings about me in the Convention program on the Mondayafternoon, The day after the convention had finished.
I have just been onto my web site to check it out and all is working OK, so here is the link again. http://www.cdrmagic.com/info.htm But just incase it does not open, Try and open up my web site http://www.cdrmagic.com and on the left hand side click on the News/info tab, this will work And the FULL story of the Carl DeRome/ Derek Lever saga is there in its entirety, You will NOT believe it, but I swear every word is true,
I've been requested, Sorry Ordered to take it down by Derek Lever and his Friends, Including Duncan Trillo the owner and boss of MagicWeek the UK online weekly magic E Magazine. But I'm a stubborn sod and refuse to do so. This is something magicians everywhere need to know about what's happening with the organizer of the worlds biggest magic convention.. And how he likes to play the big man, or as I and others have put play God.
Because I have spoken out and informed people of what Derek Lever is really like MagicWeek have now taken away all references to our shows, and taken away all links advertising our show from the magicians page , and now flatly refuse to have anything at all to do with what me and my wife/assistant Merete do, or even mention our name.
By the way MagicWeek was awarded the Murray Award at last years convention, from Derek Lever and the Blackpool Magicians Club, Coincidence or what?. you decide???
Carl de Rome
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never let others dictate to you,
Mr Lever did indeed believe in freedom of speech in 1979 - 1983.
"The Derek Lever Magic Magazine started in October 1979 and the final issue was published in August 1983. When Derek Lever launched Magic Mag he felt that the entire magic scene had become stagnant and uninteresting and once the magazine was launched he was not afraid of having a dig at anyone and everyone. It was an outspoken magazine ..."
Mr Lever was entitled to an opinion. Mr Lever was entitled to publish that opinion. But no one else may do the same ?
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Manchester, England
It's now starting to look like to me this was a well-planned strategy by Craig Mitchell, possibly in cahoots with Carl de Rome, to see if he could get himself banned from Blackpool.
It's one thing to offer an opinion, it's another to knock it home with a sledgehammer all over the internet.
Everyone seems to be unanimous of the principle of Freedom Of Speech. If you agree with it, you must also agree that others have the freedom to respond. Some will respond with words and some with actions and some will ignore you.
If you tell your boss what you think of him, you can't complain if he fires you.
Quentin, with the greatest of respect I am afraid you are wrong and comes across as a cheap shot to attack my credibility.
If you believe that my goal was to get banned - then I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken and I take great offence at the suggestion.
"If you tell your boss what you think of him, you can't complain if he fires you."
Mr Lever is not my boss nor is he the 'boss' of any FISM delegate. The facts remain.
It is interesting though to contrast in general the response to this matter of those in the UK to those outside of the UK - with a potential sanction hanging over anyone's head that may not toe the 'party' line.
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 1139
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: naquada
Dodd my comment was 'is it then right...' meaning whatever the disagreement.. is it THEN right for mr goat to set up a twitter account to impersonate someone?
Yes why on earth shouldn't one be allowed to take the piss out of someone else? Especially someone as seeming worthy as Mr Lever.
Fortunately the law allows satire.
It's not so keen on inciting 3,200 people to kill someone though.
