Hi

Has anyone seen www.penguinmagic.com recently? They are offering instant downloadable explanations of classic material such as "out of this world", "daleys last trick", "snap change", etc etc..

Is anyone else disgusted by this or is it just me? It's disrespectful and probably (if it isn't then it ******* should be) illegal.

--Euan

The were selling Kanes "Jazz Aces" for a while, but they seem to have taken it down now.

They don't even have the balls to say who invented the effect on their site, they only credit Paul Curry thus: This routine was inspired by Paul Curry.

Worse one of the people who downloaded it, who's been doing magic a whole 2 years, was bragging how easy it was to figure out the trick from the demo. Well having performed this effect for 28+ years no one I have ever performed it too has had a clue as to how it works, even after repeated showings. I can only assume that the download is not very good (I couldn't download the demo, the link was broken for me) and misses a lot of the original Curry subtleties. So much for inspiration!

This is so wrong on so many levels. Another reason not to shop at Penguin! Vote with your dollar.

Yep! It's pretty clear they're thieves. And anyone who continues to buy from them or continues to help them do this is a thief.

Steven Youell

Interestingly enough I just watched a video of an effect called "Fish Sandwich". It's a 2 phase sandwich effect and I did notice that the first revelation is pretty similar to one of Darwin's revelations from his 9 Card Location routine (and this revelation may be older than that, I don't remember). The second part of "Fish Sandwich" is oddly similar to the last phase of Aaron Fisher's routine "Search and Destroy".

I am glad to see that at least some credit was listed on the website. (inspired by Aaron Fisher)

Gentlemen,

This is also very bad, as Jay Sankey seems to have made these folks his primary distributor. I wonder how that happened?

These arguments are so much like a group of blind men trying to describe an elephant; what you see depends on which part of the animal you have your hands on, doesn't it?

Personally, I find disgusting the rampant marginalization and whoring of magic. What's special about something "anyone can do"? Nothing.

I can draw lots of parallels between the merchandising of magic and rap music's marginalization of women. In my estimation, the description of Penguin's actions are part of the world of magic in the same way that some rap is part of the world of music. If you call a woman a "ho" enough times, what makes a woman special is lost, isn't?

In the same way that we have a generation of young men growing up having absolutely no clue what important part a good woman can play in his life, we have a generation of magic enthusiasts (I hesitate to call them magicians) who have absolutely no clue what part "Greater Magic" can play in their life. A shame in both cases.

The solution has to be one-on-one. The voices of the "Illusionist" and "Penguin" whores far out number the voices of mentors. The effort to turn that tide is as awesome as it is for me to explain to my daughter why Joan Baez\'s Diamonds and Rust trumps P-Diddy any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

John

Actually people, we did what no one else here seems to have done and called up Penguin Magic.

Penguin is run by Maxwell Murphy and a partner, neither whom are magicians. To assist them in technical matters, they picked someone with good technical chops, but apparently a limited knowledge of provenance.

When we explained to Maxwell the issues at hand, he agreed that having those effects on his site was wrong. Unfortunately at this time, they are under a denial of service attack and are unable to access the web server to explain their side.

After speaking with him, we feel he is sincere in his desire to fix this situation. He never said we were wrong, or tried to hide what had happened. He says he will fix it and we think he is being truthful.

This is the easiest time we have ever had talking with a dealer about a bad situation.

Thank you for the addendum, Rosie. I was just about to launch into a tirade when your post put my feet back on the ground. I will leave alone the idea of laymen running a magic site...

May cooler heads prevail.

Mike.

What did they have to say about this 'ho' business thing? I'm ordering from the magictalk shop or elmagicshop.com if and when I ever have money again!
Steve V

I gave my e-mail to the site to enter a 200$ sweepstakes even though I wouldn't have otherwise ordered from there because I had noticed a couple of those shady offers. "Surprisingly" after a couple of days I received my first ever porn spam e-mail!

The idea that they sell e-mails and other private information has definitely entered my head, even though it is true that I cannot prove it was them. I just can't see who else.

This is another of those rip-off magic websites. Stick to the wonderful service (and yes, even prices) of L&L and other well known and RESPECTED magic dealers.

I entered the sweepstakes too, and haven't received a single spam mail in months.

Well maybe it's not them then, in that case I apologize.
I still feel this is not my kind of shop anyway. Everyone can make his/her own choices.

The sad thing is, one doesn't have to sign up for anything with an email address to have it used for spam.

Many spammers use "bots" to harvest email addresses. I know this because there are certain email addresses attached to our domain name that have NEVER been used to sign up for anything. I use them strictly in connection with our business website. Low and behold, about 3 months ago, one of those addresses suddenly appeared on some porn spammer's list. Now I can't check my email without seeing something about 'ho's" and not necessarily the magic kind...

As a little addendum, we just got an unsolicited piece of email advertising a product we did not ask for, nor did we sign up to get. We could get angry. And judging by some of the statements made here, we probably should. But in our experience we have found that spam takes but an instant to get rid of with a single click.

Meanwhile, if your don't want spam, stay out of the grocery store. You can't drive down the street without seeing ads. They are everywhere. The internet is like commercial tv. It's paid for by ads.

Anyway, GetJet, it's a little late to apologize after you've called them names. What I don't understand is why no one on this board didn't simply contact them about any issues they had instead of having a public bitch session. What does complaining in public solve? Not one thing. Let's be proactive here. Try and solve problems and not exacerbate them.

Rosie

PS. The unwated spam? It was from Steve Youell. Evidentally Steve harvested our email address somewhere, as we have never signed up on his website. Are we angry, no. Did we delete it? Yes. Was it a conspiracy? No. He is just doing business on the internet like everyone else.

Rosie,

Why would anyone need to "harvest" your e-mail when it's available with a single click from every single post you make on these forums? One needs only to click on the nifty little "E-mail Rosie" icon at the top of any of your posts and voila, there is your e-mail address. You can turn this feature off if you don't want you e-mail address publicly available. (Which actually reminds me that I need to add my e-mail address here)

_____________________________________________________________
www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums

There is a number of dealers appearing on the Internet and many don’t have any understanding of magic what so ever (apart from how to sell it). What does everyone think about this? Can you be a good dealer and not be a magician? Many are undercutting the magic shop’s (as they have many overheads) to death, we can vote by our cash, but what of the new magicians?

Darren

Internet magic shops are a fact. You may not like it, but they are here. And they are going to stay.

Book sellers don't like Amazon, but they are here too. And the people who have grown up with them wouldn't have it any other way.

In fact I just wrote an article about how the internet has impacted magic for our latest issue.

As to non-magicians running magic shops, it might interrest you to know that the magic distributors in the US are all owned by non-magicians. These are the people who have, up until recently, governed what was available in the magic market. The advent of the internet has allowed individuals to market their products freely, for better or worse, to a much wider market than ever before.

Also on the subject of non-magicians running a magic business, why do they have to be magicians to run a business? To run a business, you should be a business person. Let's face it, the majority of people are terrible at running businesses. How many authors do you see running bookstores?

Basically, people with a love for a subject quite often run a business based on that subject. You can learn a lot about magic and not even BE a magician. These people who run these internet magic shops have made them a success giving people what they want. They could have sold anything else, but they chose magic because they have a fascination for it. I don't see any reason to slam it, just because its not your dad's magic shop.

Rosie

Giorgio--

SPAMMERs (especially high volume like porn), have software that randomly generates e-mail address based on algorithms. Consequently, you never have to give out your name to be SPAMMED. A corollary is that for random SPAMs that you receive, you should never use the link provided at the bottom to "remove" your name. That is just another trick to validate that the message was sent to a working e-mail, so that more SPAM can be sent (or the e-mail address resold as validated).

...and the response by the (major) booksellers to Amazon: their own internet sites, just as Denny & Lee, and more belatedly Tannen's (and even more belatedly, Magic, Inc.)...

:whack:

I object to this statement. I do not use SPAM.
SPAM is an e-mail message sent out to e-mail addresses (usually thousands, if not more) that is not targeted.

The e-mail you received was sent to less than 100 people who have an express interest in Card Magic. Each e-mail was sent indiviudally.I do not use "harvest programs" and I don't use SPAM.

Having over 20 years of experience in the IT industry, I am very careful in choosing the things I do on the internet.

Please retract your statement.

Steven Youell

Steve,

I think Rosie had her tongue in her cheek.

First of all Steve,

You were used as an example. Neither Tony or myself care a bit that you sent us unsolicited advertisements. As we stated in the original post, it is a simple matter but to delete it with a click.

But don't worry Steve, we still have your email.

But none the less, what you did falls under the definition of SPAM.

Or a more techincal version from Spamhaus.org

While we enjoy card magic, we never specifically asked you to send us information about your products. That's the unsolicited part.

You also admit yourself that you sent this email to about a hundred people. That qualifies for the bulk part.

Unsolicited + Bulk = SPAM

According to the above definitions, your email was Spam.

We are sure you are just as tasty and nutrious as the Hormel pork product.

We are as familar with your products as we are with Hormel's. And we will continue to buy both.

And we still love you.

One makes great sandwiches...the other makes great magic.

Rosie

Rosie:

Bulk e-mail is considered to be a mailing that is in the 1000's or even millions.

I did not send you spam. If you continue to
accuse me of that and do not retract your
statement than I will take legal action.

Steven Youell

Steve,

If it means THAT much to you, then I retract my statement.

You know Steve, when we met, you had a much better sense of humor. Last time I print your lecture notes at the last minute.

Rosie

That’s quite enough of that: Take it off the forum. You have each other’s email addresses.

Subject closed, with the exception of one comment. Let me get this straight: SPAM is pork?

Dustin

I've reopened this topic just long enough to toss my two cents in.
And I apologize to Steve Youell in advance for this, however the word "SPAM" has become so tainted that it seems to generate an emotional response that is out of line. (Threatening to sue Rosie because she called an unsolicited e-mail "SPAM" seems pretty far out of line.)
The fact is that Rosie is correct. In the real big old world, SPAM is sent to thousands (and tens of thousands, and millions) of people at once. Magic is a much smaller world, and a "bulk" mailing can be as small as a 1,000 people, or even 100 people. The simple fact is that unless someone has checked a little box somewhere indicating an interest in receiving e-mail from a person or company, if that person or company sends out a bunch of e-mails (let's say 100) and they are unsolicited, then it seems to me to fit the definition of SPAM in our little corner of the world.
But, as Rosie mentioned initially, I don't think this is a bad thing. I'm sick to death of getting SPAM about Viagra, how to lengthen my penis, and farmgirls in action, but occasional unsolicited information about good magic is, frankly, something I welcome.
Now I want to know why I was discriminated against by Steve--why the heck didn't you send ME your e-mail!!!!!