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#23083 - 09/11/03 08:53 AM Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	This is for all Magician Members of The Magic Castle/AMA. The following is taken from the Board of Directors "Minutes" posted on the official Magic Castle web site at Magic Castle.com: "Lew Horwitz moved that students that complete "Basic Magic I" and "Basic Magic II" be admitted to the Academy as a regular Magician Member upon application and payment of the Initiation fee and dues, without the necessity of an audition. The motion was seconded by Ron Wilson duly voted on and passed." The BOD is constantly saying that they want to "improve" the value of our membership. What they have done is the exact opposite. I ask all of you that are members that oppose this to please email the BOD at: BOD@amamagic.com The above address goes to all of the board members. Also, official requests and questions are to be submitted in writing via U.S. mail to: Bruce Cervon, Secretary Academy of Magical Arts 7001 Franklin Avenue Hollywood, CA 90028 Another plan of action is to pay attention to the BOD elections at the beginning of next year. If you want change then do not vote for any incumbents. Thank you, Charles Spector PS I apologize for the dirty laundry but I know some of you members don't check out the Castle web page or get a chance to visit too often.
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#23084 - 09/11/03 09:15 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	I would be willing to bet that those that have "passed" those two courses would likely be better at doing magic than a majority of the present members. :genii: _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23085 - 09/11/03 09:47 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	I'm glad you put the scare quotes around "Passed." True, there are some good students, but I think there are equally bad students. It can only get worse when any Tom, Dick, or Harry can take two classes and become a Magician Member. This circumvents the whole audition process and cheapens the value of the magician membership. Charles Spector
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#23086 - 09/11/03 10:13 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Chris Aguilar Chris Aguilar Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 818 Loc: Sacramento	As someone considering joining, such posts are very interesting. I have no need or interest in taking the classes myself, but do wonder a bit about the details surrounding them. How long are the classes and what do they cover? Who teaches the classes and what is the level of instruction? What percentage of students pass both classes? If the classes and the effort needed to pass them are negligible, than I see Mr. Spectors point. If the classes are thorough and passing them isn't a given, then I would see much less to worry about. Just my two cents. As usual, your mileage may vary... _________________________ Conjure Nation-Card Forums
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#23087 - 09/11/03 10:51 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	Chris, The information about the classes can be found here: http://www.magiccastle.com/f/mcclasses.htm The teacher, David Thorsen, is qualified. I have seen students come out his class that were good and I've seen some that were bad. I have seen some that had no sincere interest in magic. I have seen people that were very sincere and very good that probably didn't need the classes. There is a whole mixture here of good and bad. But the whole thing reduces my membership to being a member of The Magic Factory that produces "magicians" every 6 weeks. Charles Spector
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#23088 - 09/11/03 11:39 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Chris Aguilar Chris Aguilar Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 818 Loc: Sacramento	Thanks for the link Charles. I suppose this bit verbiage will need to be changed. Quote: Successfully completing the course does not automatically qualify you for membership; anyone wishing to become a Magician member must still pass an audition Looks like getting through the classes would require 12 total sessions (1 per week for twelve weeks, each class being 6 weeks). The link doesn't really give you much information on what material is covered, class size, or how long each class is. I guess I'm a bit curious as to how much good information can be imparted in just 12 sessions. Do folks feel that is enough time to achieve "magician member" status? Not having taken the classes myself, I have no personal opinion either way, but wonder what others think. Is there some kind of test at the end of the class that is the rough equivalent of the audition? If so, I could see their point in waiving the audition requirement. ___________________________________________________________ www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums' _________________________ Conjure Nation-Card Forums
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#23089 - 09/12/03 06:11 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	"I guess I'm a bit curious as to how much good information can be imparted in just 12 sessions. Do folks feel that is enough time to achieve "magician member" status? Not having taken the classes myself, I have no personal opinion either way, but wonder what others think. Is there some kind of test at the end of the class that is the rough equivalent of the audition? If so, I could see their point in waiving the audition requirement. " For some people yes, it is sufficient time to learn enough to pass the audition, for some, not enough time. I don't believe there is an equivalent test at the end of class and even if there were it would bypass the membership committee with the judgement of one person. Charles Spector
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#23090 - 09/12/03 06:33 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Steve Hook Steve Hook Registered: 10/21/08 Posts: 619 Loc: North Carolina, USA	If I were a member, I'd be wondering about the intent of this development. Is it to objectify the initiation process, which previously was entirely subjective? Is it to make the process less daunting / discouraging to sincere potential initiates? Is it an economic decision, to make it easier to gain members? (In this case, the process weeds out only those who aren't willing to go through the twelve classes...at the same time figuring they would have above-average interest in magic.) Obviously there was some thought put into this, I'm sure with the foresight to know that the purists would have questions and concerns. Steve H
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#23091 - 09/12/03 09:15 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	I think it is a form of a membership drive... we need more members to bring in more money. Besides that I bet I could take someone that has a good personality, and no prior experience and coach them for a few weekends and they could go into the Castle and audition and pass a test to become a magician. I would love to take the old Francis Carlysle idea and march each member of the Castle into a room and ask them to palm a card... let's see how many would lose their memberships. $\:D$ _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23092 - 09/12/03 09:56 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Jonathan Townsend Jonathan Townsend Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 3291 Loc: Westchester, NY	Quote: Originally posted by Pete Biro: ... I would love to take the old Francis Carlysle idea and march each member of the Castle into a room and ask them to palm a card... let's see how many would lose their memberships. $\:D$ love to find how many would/could do the Gary Kurtz card vanish that looks like you take a card into palm $\:\)$ and that course on learning magic... does it say anywhere that it takes about 20 years?
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#23093 - 09/12/03 11:48 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	What about those who are magic historians, collectors, publishers, dealers, illusion designers, etc. who make absolutely no pretense about their ability (and lack there of) to perform and in fact have no desire to be performers? (And, rightfully, refuse to perform what they do know so as not to damage the image of the art.) I suppose they should not allowed to be Regular Members of the Magic Castle? I agree that magic is first and foremost a performance art, but I also believe that the Castle should welcome such folks as described above on an equal basis (i.e. they can attend lectures and use the library unlike Associate Members). To think otherwise is, in my opinion, very narrow minded indeed. Dustin (Can palm cards--but knows an AMA two-time award winning fulltime pro who does not and thus should not be a member of the Castle.)
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#23094 - 09/12/03 12:12 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Having perspective members have some audition or interview, before obtaining membership is only right if the premise of certain standards are to be expected....Not knowing if completing,(not sitting thru) these classes is enough valuable learning & experience, myself. (You in the service, can tell me if those "90 day wonder-officers...really were.) BTW, when I audtioned for membership, having not performed in 12 years, besides the little act I did, I brought parts of my Houdini collection, saying,"If you don't like my act, maybe you will vote on my collection instead!"
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#23095 - 09/12/03 01:22 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	I'm certainly not saying that there should be no interview process. Prospective members need to show a true desire to advance within the art. My point is that the art can be advanced through means other than performance, so that cannot be the only criteria when determining who may be a regular "Magician" member (and no, we do not want to get into "collector member"; "scholar member" yata-yata-yata). As one of the foremost collectors and historians in magic, you should never have had to audition to gain membership into the AMA: interview, yes--perform, no. Dustin
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#23096 - 09/12/03 04:38 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	Dustin.... actually, I think there should be different categories of members. Performers that have worked the club Performers that work anywhere else Amateur magicians with reasonable skills Collectors Historians etc. (I would guess there are several categories, but that is for others to come up with). And.... Like the Magic Circle (I have been told it is not necessary to say "in London") you get a badge to wear with different levels, Gold Star, Silver Star, No star, etc. Just more food for thought... :p _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23097 - 09/12/03 04:39 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	I love Pat Hennessy's idea re: giving Illegal Aliens a DRIVERS LICENSE in California.... Have printed in large letters in red ink across the license... I L L E G A L A L I E N Heheheheh _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23098 - 09/12/03 05:28 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	Just thinking about the administrative nightmare that would create makes my head hurt. Next thing you know, one class will say their dues should be less than the other class..... Ain't worth it. And Pat ALWAYS has good ideas! (How's Pat doing? I look forward to seeing him at the History Conference.)
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#23099 - 09/12/03 06:12 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	Pat at lunch today, McComb, McClintock, Herzer(s), Wilson, Culliton and Smith (the round table gang)... all fine. Sad note: Irene Larsen's friend, Donald, died. $\:\($ _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23100 - 09/12/03 07:16 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	Sorry to hear that. I'm getting tired of people dying. I say we should have a moratorium on that for a while - a long while. Glad to hear all others are well.
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#23101 - 09/13/03 09:29 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	FYI: Larry Horowitz has a petition going around to have the Board reverse their decision. If anybody is interested contact him. Charles Spector
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#23102 - 09/13/03 10:00 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12207 Loc: Washington DC	Facts MUST faced: the landlords of the Magic Castle, the Glover family, have demanded that their portion of the income from the Magic Castle be dramatically increased. The place, in case you haven't noticed or haven't read the messages from Lew Horowitz in the newsletter, appears to be teetering on insolvancy. The Glover family has not given the Castle a new lease. They are going on a month to month basis and if the money isn't forthcoming to the Glovers, the Castle could close at any time. The Castle needs more members if it is to survive. A LOT more members. And that's what they're doing: creating more members. You can call it "watering down magic" or "making magic commonplace" or whatever you want. BUT, if they don't do it, then the Castle is finished. Is that sufficiently clear? You don't have to be able to demonstrate any performance ability in order, as Dustin has noted, to be both a student of magic and a suporter.
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#23103 - 09/13/03 10:13 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	Right on Richard... we need more members. Yesterday at lunch there was less than half a room full to see McClintock's close up show. As often as I can I will bring someone (non member) to help spend money at the Castle. Last time I performed there I picked up tabs for guests that were about double my earnings! Maybe I am dumb, but the club needs our support. I was told that the bar magic last week was so good that a number of members just sat in the front row and never left watching Brian Gillis over and over again... and NOT BUYING ANY DRINKS. Sadly, magicians, for a large part, are Cheap !! One of the problems we have at the Desert Seminars in Las Vegas, with the hotels, is they complain to us "Your attendees DON'T GAMBLE... we don't make any money on your people." Ramble ramble... Bottom Line... support the Castle, buy dinner there, don't just come in, see a show and split. Otherwise, Milt may have to rip out all the stuff and rent an old house in Moreno Valley to relocate where we can afford the rent. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23104 - 09/13/03 10:25 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Jon Racherbaumer Jon Racherbaumer Registered: 01/22/08 Posts: 713 Loc: New Orleans	If the doom-and-gloomers are correct and the Castle eventually closes down the road, it would be tragic to those who grew up when it was a conspicuous part of the magic landscape. So much "history" is encapsulated there...a whole Zeitgeist... However... like the magic shops of yore (which most of us deeply lament having passed from the scene)... when the catalysts, movers-and-shakers, and linchpins have passed from the scene... not only are the "places" different, they are fated to unavoidably pass away, as well... This, they say, is part of the tragedy of living past your "times"... This is also why Lestat (Interview with a Vampire) was so abjectly melancholy. Immortality, alas, is a curse. What would Houdini or Hofzinser be lamenting if they were alive today? How much would they have seen pass away? As it stands, I would love to see the Castle be registered as a historic site and some super-rich patron support it into perpetuity... Otherwise...? Onward, JR
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#23105 - 09/13/03 11:41 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Larry Horowitz Larry Horowitz Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 28 Loc: L.A.	Yes, the castle can use more members. There is no argument. But is diluting the value of membership the right way? The castle needs money to stay alive. If you read Lew Horwitz's statements and listen to him at the academy meetings he said the problem is not the amount of members but the members not spending time and money in the castle. That is the problem. We don't need to find ways to get more members, we need to get those we have to come and spend. We need to rethink our marketing to our members. What will make them come to the castle and spend? Do we need an expanded menu with some lower priced items for those on limited budgets? We need to better promote the castle so that the slow nights of the week,Monday, Tuesday, are better attended. The national trend is an increase in resturant business over the last 2 years of about 4.3%, why is the castle business down? We do not have any significant decrease in membership numbers over that time period. The castle has always had a reputation for poor food. The quality has dramatically improved over the last 2 years, yet the stereotype remains. That effects business. Where is the castle's promotional efforts to get the word out about the improvement? I can go on and on, suffice to say, the Castle is a special place. It must remain special. If it is to become just like all the other magic theme restuarants that have existed, then it will be gone, just like all the magic themed resturants the HAVE EXISTED. The Magic Castle holds it's place in the magic community because is has standards from dress code to auditions for entry. These standards make it stand out more then any club, IBM ring, shop, etc.
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#23106 - 09/13/03 11:48 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Michael Kamen Michael Kamen Registered: 01/18/08 Posts: 268 Loc: SF Bay Area	I do not mean to speak a sacrilege, and this is just a thought, but I wonder if instead of watering down the membership requirements, it might not work to just reduce the number of "members-only" nights. For example, Friday and Saturday nights might be opened to non-members, say, 2 or 3 out of 4 weeks in the month. If the integrity of both the atmosphere and the performance magic is nurtured and fostered, I suspect that a lot of people would love to visit the Magic Castle, enjoy the magic, and spend money there. Why could the Castle not retain its present character (the private club element is a critical component of that) and also be a viable albeit limited commercial enterprise? Seems a better alternative to me than everyone and anyone being easily dubbed a "magician" just so they can be a "member" and thus attend and spend money. _________________________ Michael Kamen
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#23107 - 09/13/03 01:31 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	No sacrilege, Michael: There is no longer any "members only night(s)." I must admit that I'm a little fuzzy on the whole "diluting the value of membership" thing. The value of my membership is based on what I do with the benefits available to me, not the level of expertise of the guy sitting next to me at a lecture. What has that got to do with it? Hell, I already think that a lot of the members I encounter are schmucks, and they probably think the same about me, so who cares? My membership will lose value if, suddenly, I have to pay extra for the lectures (even though I haven't been to one in years--I know I can whenever I want), or if the library is closed more often than it is open. Or worse, the assets in the library start to be sold off because the AMA needs the cash. Then I'd get pissed off and question the value of my membership. And what are the numbers we are talking about here: A percentage of the handful of people who take the classes? More members means more guest passes being handed out which means more regular people coming through the doors spending money. If those who take the Castle classes are considered "diluting the value of membership," then I could really piss off a few people if I revealed some of the details of a proposal I gave to Dale a few months ago. Part of it was designed to increase AMA membership and get more passes out into the general population. Of course, I have not heard anything from him, so he may have taken the second part of my advice when I handed the presentation to him, which was to either read and consider it, or line his birdcage with it. So there's no need to go into detail here. But its goal--and suffice it to say, this is the key--is to create another way to get money-spending people through those doors on a consistent basis, especially since regular members do not spend gobs of dough there. I try to do my part when I go: I have dinner when I can and I always patronize the bars, but I don't get up there too often any more. The older I get, the further away it gets (even though I still live in the same place). But what I do most is hand out guest passes every chance I get, because that is the Castle's bread and butter. I have always felt that it is an obligation of my membership to hand them out, not a benefit bestowed upon me simply to make me appear special. During the holidays I send out emails to the management of my company (we a have a bunch of them) reminding them that I am a member of the Castle and it’s a great and unique place to take clients and family "when looking for unique entertainment opportunities during the holiday season." (And I should do it during the summer months too--don't know why I haven't--bad Dustin, bad!) Is that a bad thing? Openly solicit people I barely know to request passes from me? It better not be, because I want to continue doing my part of herding paying customers through those doors. Unfortunately, this has been a particularly bad year for me. I have handed out a bunch of passes, but I am aware of only three groups who have gone. I'm guessing that's about a 5% return. So, if that's the current norm, then I (we) have to increase the number of passes handed out. Increasing the membership rolls is a way of doing just that. More members will not lessen the value of your membership: only you can do that. Dustin
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#23108 - 09/13/03 03:26 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	It is a personal value to me to know that I belong to a club I worked hard to join that doesn't just let anyone in. It is a privaledge and an honor to know that I passed an audition, that I had been accepted. Now any Joe Shmoe can get in by taking two sets of classes. And I'm not belittling the people that take these classes, I talked to a few last night and they felt the same way: that it would mean nothing to them without the audition, hence, meaning, value. As to Pete and Dustin's comments as to the quality of the Magician Members now not being up to par; does it make sense to lower the standards? In fact they are getting rid of the standards. There are other ways to make money without sacrificing the integrity of the club, or what little integrity it has left. Frankly I am surprised at how little the Magic community seems concerned. Do I hear any Ahmens? Charles Spector
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#23109 - 09/13/03 05:27 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	"Hallelujah brother! I'm here to console the sinner and return the stray lamb to the fold!" (50¢ to the first person who can tell me what movie that comes from.) Sorry--I couldn't help myself with that one. Charles, I am more concerned that there is a very real possibility that the Magic Castle might cease to exist. Then what is the value of my membership? But please note: Nowhere have I said that "any schmoe" should be allowed in. Nowhere have I said that there should not be some sort of interview/qualification process. But I will reiterate: what, Charles, do you do with a person whose only interest in magic is in the study of its history? Is he not worthy of membership? Under your criteria, he is not allowed to be a member because there is no way in hell he'd get past an audition. Maybe you'd say, "he can be an associate member." No, he would not be allowed in the library, so the primary reason for his joining, access to the library for research, is negated. So, he doesn't join at all and someone who could be a quality member goes away along with his friends and family who might enjoy visiting his club. But hey, your pride and integrity remains intact! Where will that pride and integrity be when the old mansion is an office building? I'm sorry Charles, I don't mean to be argumentative. I understand your concerns, I really do. You are proud that you made it through the audition and you should be! Obviously you don't want "any schmoe" to think that you "skated" into your membership like he did--neither do I. But you are the only person who counts in that equation anyway, aren't you? But from a fiscal standpoint, something needs to be done and most of the ideas forthcoming will not work. Adding lower cost items to the menu may allow a few more members to eat there a little more often, but then, won't the non-members start ordering the lower priced items as well? You bet they will, and now we have a shrinking dollar volume in the very place we need to increase dollar volume. Should we maintain a "members only" menu? There's a bad idea because the extra overhead costs would probably make it cost ineffective (the more stuff you have to buy, there more shrink you incur and down goes your margins. That's the reason the Festalboard is gone; it wasn't cost effective). Having the perfect menu in a restaurant isn't easy. Years ago the Castle had prime rib, a seafood special, a beef special and the Festalboard and that was it! People complained that the menu was too limited, but I'll bet that was a time of the highest profit margin enjoyed by the restaurant. Expanding a menu is expensive and actually lowers cost effectiveness and profitability. Ever wonder why In & Out burgers maintain such a limited menu? Because they make bank, that's why. No, we have to increase traffic and do it without giving away our product. Here's another bad idea I hear now and then: lowering prices and having big specials like two for one, or come back again and get a second entrée free. That might drive traffic volume, but it will not increase real dollar volume and profits. This is the immense challenge the Magic Castle is facing. Members buying hotdogs or hamburgers will not meet this challenge and neither will giving away what we sell. One way to do that is to increase membership so more passes are being handed out so more of them have the opportunity to be used. Another option would be to open the doors completely, and I am dead set against that. But don't kid yourself, it's a very real possibility one or two nights a week. Some say it's already happening to a degree. But all that doesn't address the issue of pride in membership does it? And I really do sympathize with you, so, maybe Pete is right: Maybe we need to have levels of membership. A real interest in magic is all you need to get in, but the only way to wear a coveted "Golden Owl" is to pass a performance audition. In the mean time, the schmucks and schmoes can pass out guest passes all they want. Dustin
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#23110 - 09/13/03 08:40 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12207 Loc: Washington DC	Ah, Dustin, there were always reasons I respected you, and you have just reconfirmed them. You are a voice of logic and reason in the wilderness.
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#23111 - 09/13/03 10:06 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Larry Horowitz Larry Horowitz Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 28 Loc: L.A.	Dustin, there are no tar and feathers. I do believe that our audition process takes into account those people that "demonstrate" through an interview(their version of an audition) a sincere and long held interest in magic. That means that collectors and historians need not display any skill whatsoever. They must prove that they are involved in magic as an art. I know for a fact that a young lady,writing her college thesis paper on magic, was accepted for membership the same night as my audition( Jeff Ezell may remember this). I have no quarrel with this type of individual being called a magician member. The audition or interview is not just to test for ability or knowledge, it is to ascertain a true understanding that magic is more then just a kids toy. We want people that can convin ce us they are in it for the long haul. This does not garuntee us any money will be spent at the castle. It just garuntees that these are the kind of people that make the castle a special place in the magic world. W We don't ask much,(notice no one has mentioned that ease or difficulty of the audition), we only ask that people be willing to step up and show that they care. That they care more then the cost of a check and a few weeks in a classroom.
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#23112 - 09/13/03 10:33 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	(Larry - you can read this reply at the Castle Forum as well, but I'm posting it here for the benefit of the non-members who may be interested.) There are a few allusions to the difficulty level of the interview (and the lack thereof)[in the Castle Forum thread]. But most compelling to me are the statements that some beginners have indeed been told to go home and practice more. That's a clear statement that they are not seen as "good enough." Yet, perhaps they had a sincere desire to excel and they saw membership at the Castle as an avenue for doing just that. But that, apparently, is not enough. You just said investing time and money in taking the classes is not enough; so what is enough? Where is the standard? Collectors need not perform; they just have to have a passion for collecting. Historians need not perform; they need a passion for history. What about a passion for magic, even if one cannot make sponge bunnies jump from one hand to the other (but started to learn by taking classes)? "Well, you took our classes. We can see that you want to learn, and you have a passion for the art, but we think you should go home and practice more." That's the message being sent. Is that the message we want to send? Apparently, yes. Again, I go back then to the collector/historian double standard. Their passion is good enough, but the beginner's is not. I have a problem with that. I know someone right now who probably couldn't pass the audition. But I would put his love and desire for growth in the craft up against anyone's. Right now he cannot afford membership anyway (and certainly not at the associate level). That's too bad. He'd be a fine member: a great ambassador for the Castle and magic even though he doesn't perform (though he is learning). But alas, even if he could afford a regular membership right now, he's not a "real magician." It's our loss. Dustin
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#23113 - 09/13/03 10:38 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	Dustin, I don't think we disagree all that much, if even at all. I agree with Larry's statement above. A sincere interest in magic is what I am concerned about. The audition/interview process is the best that we have to determine that sincerety. As far as making money, what is being done to get the associate membership up? The associates were always there to help support the magican membership. I realize we are on the brink of losing the place. I don't want to see it happen either. But when I see the money wasted on Disneyland type maps of the place and phamplets that have the wrong show times it begins to tick me off. Charles Spector
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#23114 - 09/13/03 11:14 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Are we talking about the Magic Castle? The one in Hollywood, CA??? I remember the interview and audition being more of a formality than an actual test of my knowledge, skills, and passion of magic. I only performed half of my set of routines before being told, by the committee, that they had seen enough. At first I felt terrible because I figured that I sucked so bad that they couldn't stand seeing my whole set. However, I soon found out that not only did I get in that night, but lots of the guys who perform store bought self-working tricks have been receiving membership for quite awhile. Maybe the standards were a lot higher in years past, but nowadays I don't think that anyone who has a few sessions with a good mentor will have difficulty passing the test. PLAN A: In light of this, I would think that the Castle should send a representative to the graduating class on their last night of magic classes. The Castle's representative (a committee of one) could watch the newbies perform a few tricks and casually ask them a few questions and then offer them the opportunity for membership. This would be a different type of audition/interview, but an audition nonetheless. This should keep the members who had a "real" audition happy; the Multimillionaire Glovers will be able to have 100 cars instead of only 99; and we'll still have a place to hang out and do magic once in awhile. PLAN B: Declare that all members of the Castle are illegal aliens so that the government will pay for our membership dues.
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#23115 - 09/13/03 11:15 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	Quote: Originally posted by Charles Spector: A sincere interest in magic is what I am concerned about. The audition/interview process is the best that we have to determine that sincerety. On that we can agree. Like I said, I never believed an interview of some kind should be waived. Now what's this about Disney style maps? I missed that one! Dustin
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#23116 - 09/13/03 11:24 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	MJ, Good ideas all, even the goofy one (something about a representative going to the classroom... $\:D$ ) Dustin
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#23117 - 09/14/03 12:27 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	Dustin, The Disneyland maps refers to the full color print-outs of a map and what the Magic Castle has to offer. These are handed-out as you walk in. Also, my previous post has been edtited as I felt it was more of a rant than an actual useful discussion. Charles Spector
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#23118 - 09/14/03 10:13 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Wolf Wolf Member Registered: 11/01/08 Posts: 126	Some people may be offended but I guess the reality has to sink in eventually: I feel that the Glover family has been more than helpful to the magic castle. It is a fact that the castle sits on a prime piece of real estate and that the Glover's could sure generate more income with it than the casle is paying in rent. I do not know why we magicians expect the Glovers to pass on that added profit. They are not magicians and for them the castle is just a money looser at this point. I am surprised they have not made other arrangements yet. The right course of action might be for the castle to start actively looking for an alternative property right now. One that the AMA indeed could afford. I understand that a move generates a one time expense with all the remodeling necessary but it could save lots more in rent in the long run. IMO it would be better to face reality now than being kicked out of the Glover property and than have to scramble for alternatives or worse having to close the castle completely. I am sure that the castle could be a succesfull venue (business-wise) if the cost of overhead was not that high. As to the membership question I really do not understand the point. If I want to become the member of the local golf club I do not have to be a professional golfer, same goes for the tennis club. In fact I know of people who just become members because they like the atmosphere of the club restaurant. If someone shows enough interest in the magic castle to write a check to become a member than let him become one. If he enjoys the restaurant and the shows than let him be a member. What damage is done when he enjoys a lecture and learns a trick? What damage is done when he looks at a book in the libary? Maybe if he reads enough books or sees enough lectures he will be the next Copperfield....... Take advantage of the magic castle as a venue to actually bring people to magic. My point in short is either bring the overhead down drastically or change the rules of membership to create revenue fast otherwise there might not be a magic castle at all in the future and than that "coveted" magician membership is only worth the space it takes up over the fireplace......
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#23119 - 09/14/03 10:13 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Jonathan Townsend Jonathan Townsend Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 3291 Loc: Westchester, NY	I've wanted to see the Magic Castle for about 25 years. For some reason images of a magician's Disneyland came to mind when I heard reports of the place. I suspect that our craft benefits greatly from a publicly accessible landmark. Not sure what to suggest or say about the economics of the club. Perhaps it could turn itself around by changing its level of service and clientelle attracted. This might mean rethinking some things. Perhaps longer and better publicised engagments? Some public works of notice? Perhaps the place could become an NEA site and repository for records, works, memorabelia like the Smithsonian Institution. It really has to come down to what has value and how to communicate those values to people.
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#23120 - 09/14/03 11:28 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12207 Loc: Washington DC	I think, if it hasn't already been pointed out, that it's worthwhile to compare The Magic Castle with The Magic Circle in London. The Magic Circle has far fewer members, and they have a beautiful building. However, the members only get to use the building once a week (or perhaps the library is now open another day a week). The building is not supported by a restaurant, a bar, or by members dues (really). Everything is kept afloat by renting out the building during the balance of the week and by putting on shows for the public. The Magic Castle is entirely different. The Academy of Magic Arts and The Magic Castle owns neither the land on which it sits or the building itself. The land is extremely valuable and could undoubtedly bring in more money for the Glover family if put to other use. So, the Castle, unlike the Magic Circle, must make an effort to bring in as many new members as possible. Whereas The Magic Circle has tightened its standards for admitting new members (and it can do this because it is not dependent upon them for income), the Magic Castle must do exactly the opposite. Frankly, I don't see that it matters at all whether a person is a magician or not, or has an interest in magic or not, if they want to pay their money and belong to The Magic Castle if this gives them a place to entertain for business or just see the shows and have a few drinks (and give out guest cards). Why must a person be a magician to belong to the Magic Castle? Do you think a non-magician is going to sit for hours in the library? Don't be silly. And who cares if they do.
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#23121 - 09/14/03 11:29 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	I'll keep this as short as I can, as I've already written large amounts on this topic at the AMA web boards. First, as has been stated before, historians and scholars are interviewed to become magician members, they do not have to pass a physical audition, so that's not an issue at all. But members who want to be magician members based on their abilities, until just now, DID have to audition. I can state from experience -- you don't have to be very good at all. Hobbiests are encouraged and welcomed. But they do expect a minimum level of skill and ability. Let's say you've been doing magic and practicing for 6 months, as opposed to those who've been doing it for 1 month. As for the classes, I took them a while ago. There is no way to "pass" the class -- they are basic introductory tricks that get slightly harder as the classes progress, and they are designed to introduce new magicians to a variety of tricks, from coins to cards to ropes to thumbtips. If you like a trick, you are encouraged to learn it well. Don't like a particular one? No problem, ignore it. The classes are for people who WANT to learn, not who want a grade. Finish one class and sign up for the next right away. There is no way to fail, if you want to learn you can sign up. At the end of Magic II, Dave Thorsen (who I have nothing but praise for) only recommended 2 or 3 students to audition. The rest he said he wouldn't sign for (a member has to sign the audition for) til they had completed Magic III because they weren't ready. But apparently now, he's being overruled on that regard by the board. FInally, I agree we need more members. But we need more ASSOCIATE members with the higher dues even more than we need magician members. And what I disagree with is this move of desperation, as opposed to coming up with other ways to increase membership. Those ways DO exist, they can be done extremely cheaply, they WILL increase membership, and the Magic Castle forums are filled with ideas by members on how to accomplish those goals. So far, the board has pretty much ignored them and has jumped into this instead. THAT is why so many of us are signing Larry Horrowitz's petition.
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#23122 - 09/14/03 12:54 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dustin Stinett Dustin Stinett Dark Fascist Overlord Registered: 07/22/01 Posts: 6343 Loc: Southern California	Quote: Originally posted by Michael Yanovich: At the end of Magic II, Dave Thorsen (who I have nothing but praise for) only recommended 2 or 3 students to audition. The rest he said he wouldn't sign for (a member has to sign the audition for) til they had completed Magic III because they weren't ready. But apparently now, he's being overruled on that regard by the board. And with that I too would take issue against the BOD. Obviously the teacher should know best. I have at no time said that there should be no standard or an interview process. I jumped into this fray only to point out that performance is not the only standard by which to measure one's love for the art. I like the idea of a member of the Membership Committee visiting the class and interviewing those interested in membership. Dustin (Has dibs on the bound file of The Sphinx when the AMA starts selling off the library. $\:D$ )
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#23123 - 09/14/03 03:19 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Charles Spector Charles Spector Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 98 Loc: Huntington Beach, CA	Richard Kaufman wrote: Quote: Frankly, I don't see that it matters at all whether a person is a magician or not, or has an interest in magic or not, if they want to pay their money and belong to The Magic Castle if this gives them a place to entertain for business or just see the shows and have a few drinks (and give out guest cards). Why must a person be a magician to belong to the Magic Castle? Do you think a non-magician is going to sit for hours in the library? Don't be silly. And who cares if they do. [/QB] Richard, There are two types of memberships at the AMA: 1. Magician Membership 2. Associate Membership The Associate Membership doesn't require you to be a magician or pass an audition. With an Associate Membership you can not use the library or go to lectures.I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with anyone who gets a Magician Membership that has not proven their sincerity (by demonstrating historical understanding and/or technical ability). Folks, the auditions aren't that hard. They are a litmus test though, and a test that should not be bypassed. Charles Spector PS Thanks Richard for letting this discussion continue.
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#23124 - 09/14/03 04:50 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Dave Egleston Dave Egleston Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 70 Loc: Ceres, Ca.	Quote: We don't need to find ways to get more members, we need to get those we have to come and spend. We need to rethink our marketing to our members. What will make them come to the castle and spend? Do we need an expanded menu with some lower priced items for those on limited budgets? We need to better promote the castle so that the slow nights of the week,Monday, Tuesday, are better attended.[/QUOTE] The above was written by Mr Horowitz I really have no business getting in this discussion, but being a big mouthed, opinionated old man, I will. First off Mr Horowitz must be an MBA or has heard one talk - The quickest way to loose what you have is to push your guaranteed money into spending more money - As a lowlife worker - not privy to the inner sanctum of management - I've seen several small businesses ground into bankruptcy by trying to push established customers into spending more money with the business to which the customer was already loyal, and trying to make money by eliminating services the customer was accustomed My first experience with MBA's was working in a very busy bowling alley - The owners son went to college and got his MBA - came back, took over the management - This idiot immediately doubled profits the first quarter - by "laying off" all but one of the porters - after all, the desk person could retrieve pins that came out on the lane and empty ashtrays and clean up spills and the restrooms while leagues were in session. Then he decided we really didn't need the three part time recruiters we had - It's easier to pressure the established league bowlers, to bowl a couple more times a week, then he decided the School program where we went to the local schools with plastic pins and rubber bowling balls to teach the fundamentals of bowling and score keeping was a complete drain on the payroll, with no immediate return for the 10-12 dollars an hour it took to send someone out. Of course the restaurant no longer had busboys - The waitresses and cooks could do it in their spare time. Also no drink waitresses on the lanes - and so forth. Over the course of the next two years the bowling alley went from having 27 adult leagues weekly to 11 and the youth program no longer existed - It closed a year later - The only good thing was on the last night it was open - We had to call the ambulance and police, because the father of the MBA took a broken broom handle to his son and and beat the living hell out of him. Moral of the story - I don't know - Maybe get some folks running the Castle that don't start every sentence with: We never did it that way before. Dave
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#23125 - 09/15/03 08:20 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Richard Kaufman Richard Kaufman The Chief Genii Registered: 07/18/01 Posts: 12207 Loc: Washington DC	The problem with Associate Memberships is that they cost an exorbitant amount of money last time I check (which was years ago)--which really is a form of blackmail. "Sure, you can join the Magic Castle, but since you're not a magician it's going to cost you X times as much." A load of crap. There's no reason to have different sorts of memberships. Let everyone who wants to become a member do so. I think anyone who is under the impression that there are a flood of laymen who are going to join the Magic Castle so they can see the lectures on Sunday or go into the Library and sit and read for hours is just having some bizarre "exposure" fantasy. Aside from the lectures and the library, what's the difference if laymen are members or not? They just walk around the place, eat, drink, and see shows. So what!
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#23126 - 09/15/03 08:57 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	That's a good point RK.... my wife and I inquired about joining the "California Club" -- a really high end, Laywers, CEOs, heavy hitters in L.A., and amazingly it was WAY less than we thought (still can't afford it) but what we noticed was how much the members supported all the events. We have a close friend that invites us about six or more times a year and all their functions are jammed with people... So, support of the club is the key and that is what the Castle needs. When someone as solid as we have performing there, say for lunch, and you can't fill the 20 seat room, the magicians are blowing it. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23127 - 09/15/03 10:32 AM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Anonymous Anonymous Unregistered	Although membership dues, etc., may be high for some, Pete does bring to mind the cost of belonging to other private clubs. Wouldn't be surprised if the California or Jonathan clubs cost thousands to join...ditto for country clubs that access a food and beverage charge, if you DON'T spend a monthly quota in their dining room/bar. A distinction of magician/non-magician members is best, but if economics demand it...? Just to keep things in perspective, about 10 years ago when there was a lot of bad-mouthing of The Castle by some, Milt Larsen concluded in a response, "I'm just glad I was able to build a place for people to complain about!"
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#23128 - 09/15/03 01:40 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Terry Terry Registered: 01/18/08 Posts: 256 Loc: Kentucky	One of the first things I heard years ago about the Castle is they think there is a pole that runs down the middle of the joint and the magic world revolves around it. Sorry, don't think so. That may have been true when the Professor, Bill Larsen, etc. was around, but the real center of the magic world appears to be Las Vegas. When a business is bleeding cash, you look at who is in charge and how the money is being wasted or skimmed off. Refer to Tony Giorgio's site for more detail. It appears the castle could use an enema and the BOD would be the spot to place the tube.
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#23129 - 09/15/03 10:01 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Larry Horowitz Larry Horowitz Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 28 Loc: L.A.	Dave, You are reading ideas into my posts that do not excist. I have never said pressure members to spend more money.. I say entice members to spend more by offering more. I believe the castle managment needs to learn the lesson of "spend money to make money." I don't want us to cut costs, I want us to to spend money on sound promotional ideas which bring both the members and their guests into the building. I want us to train the service crew to care for every need of the paying customers so that they tell everyone what a great evening is to be had at the castle. My post clearly states we need to find ways to promote are slow evenings. You do not increase revenue by diluting a product. You increase revenue by putting a good product out there and then letting the world know. Build a better mouse trap and they will beat a path to your door.
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#23130 - 09/15/03 11:32 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	Tony's lawsuit had to cost a huge amount... any members reading here know how much that FRIVOLOUS bit of crap cost? _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23131 - 09/16/03 03:31 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Terry Terry Registered: 01/18/08 Posts: 256 Loc: Kentucky	Pete, Not trying to start an argument with you, but if the Castle is in trouble, you have to look from the top down. Management or rather mis-management of funds will be the downfall. Just look at Enron. After reading Mr Giorgio's posts concerning the troubles with the BOD and the fact that Max Maven tried to run against the entrenched ones, it does cause an open minded individual to wonder if there isn't something wrong.
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#23132 - 09/16/03 03:57 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Chris Aguilar Chris Aguilar Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 818 Loc: Sacramento	Anyone have a link to the Tony Giorgio web site? _________________________ Conjure Nation-Card Forums
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#23133 - 09/16/03 04:07 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Pete Biro Pete Biro Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 303 Loc: Hollyweird	Call if voter apathy... Max would likely be a good member of the board, but what is really needed are more business-minded experts. Having "popular" magicians on the board is not a good way to go. _________________________ Stay tooned.
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#23134 - 09/16/03 04:32 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Jim Riser Jim Riser Registered: 01/17/08 Posts: 549 Loc: Tucson, AZ	Pete is correct about needing business types on the board rather than magic types. The Magic Castle is a business and should be run as such. I joined as a regular member in 1967 or 68 and continued as such until Bill Larsen's untimely death. At that time, members were being assessed for a foolish unsecured $200,000 loan the BOD had made with Bill Larsen. When I found out that this was how business was being done, I dropped my membership. Castle busines practices have always been rather questionable. A look over Tony G.'s web site shows that things have not changed since I left. In all of the years that I was a regular member I was never able to get a dinner reservation. This always irked me. That is no way to treat members. I do not see the Magic Castle continuing much longer under their method of operation. Tony G.'s site really points out what has been going on behind the scenes. In my opinion funds available have not been spent in the best way for maintaining (let alone growing) a business. Eventually all of this sort of waste of funds catches up with a business. _________________________ http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html
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#23135 - 09/16/03 08:15 PM Re: Magic Castle/AMA Members Please Read!
Brian Morton Brian Morton Registered: 03/12/08 Posts: 343 Loc: Bawlamer, Merlin	Well, when the Castle has on the board a vice-president of one of the biggest banks in the country, and still suffers from "creative accounting," (who has ever seen a line-item breakdown of the AMA's/Castle's finances?), you have to wonder how far things have to get. - Most places wouldn't be going from black-and-white brochures to full-color if they were running an almost-deficit. - Most places wouldn't be cutting off debate or requiring written questions in advance or "ten minutes only" questioning of the treasurer if they were constantly worried about being able to keep the budget balanced. - Most places wouldn't be allowing the wife of the brother's founder to be charging large sums for decorations for holiday parties. When you see money getting thrown down a hole, the first thing you do is question why you're throwing the money, and then the second is to plug the hole. It usually isn't to find more donors to help throw. Just one nobody non-resident member's .02 -- without interest, which I'm sure is being assessed... [back to lurking] brian
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