I am told that Penguin magic in the USA are selling a pirated version of Colin Gilbert's Linking Lifesavers. Colin has written to Penguin but had no satisfaction though I am told that they want to offer him some money. He is not really interested in a cash payoff and just wants the company to stop manufacturing and or selling this item. This is damaging my business as well as I export these items to the USA.
Any ideas from any of my magical friends as to how to proceed on this one.

Martin Breese, Brighton, England.

This is the kind of actions that justify my decision not to do business with Penguin. You are not the first person to have this occur. I hope you all can get it straightened out.
Steve V

It's a pitty Magicsmith no longer exists... as a shop...
They sold the business to Penguin.... and since then i receive emails almost every day....


jacky
www.magicbooks.be

Penguin is starting to get a history regarding that.

They were selling something of Lee Asher's (without permission) and wouldn't do a thing about it until realizing that Lee has a lot more pull than they thought. (Don't know the details, so don't ask, all I know is they stopped).

There's a few other things that I know about, but am not choosing to say at this moment.

I never have, and never will buy from an online shop (with one exception).

David.

Thanks for your replies. So I see that I am not the first to complain. Although I have my own online magic shop I must say that there are also only just a few with whom I will do business. I hope that David includes my online business in the list of "one" that he will do business with. I have never cheated anyone and any complaints justified and frequently unjustified are settled without complaint. Try me out David and perhaps you will be able to extend your list to two! An online business runs the same way as a magic shop - in my opinion - as far as customer relations goes: if you don't look after your customers you end up going out of business. I have been muddling along for 30 years and I wonder how long Penguin have been around.
Is there someone there who knows the people at Penguin personally? If there is please drop them an email and warn them that when I go on the warpath (which is very infrequently) ... I go on the warpath. I could take any interesting trick that I like, rewrite the instructions and I wouldn't be breaking any laws but it is not my way of doing things. There are no challenges and it is wrong.
Usually pirates who rip me off don't have anything of their own for me to rip off in retaliation in any case. Still would appreciate more feedback from my magic friends out there. The more of a buzz about a rip-off merchant the more damage it causes them.

All the best, Martin

Interesting that as of this writing the Penguin website states the following:

"Manufacturer Says Magic Mints is an authorized version of Colin Gilbert's "Linking Lifesavers" which we also carry and recommend highly."

Terry

They can say anything they want.

Authorized by whom?

Penguin has done and is DOING a lot of stuff that people in the magic community would have crucified other businesses for. Why aren't people speaking up about this sort of thing? Why aren't magicians trying to do something about it?

David.

Whose trick is the Linking Lifesavers?

I also recall a Jardin Ellis lifesaver from some time ago.

This may be a pipe dream but it could work. I was looking for some old books and ran into a website that was a collective shop for several small book stores.

What if magic would have one. One shop, amazing variety of stock, all the exclusive stuff etc. etc. The thing would be that based on the zip code, item, and country the computer would determine which shop would sell the item and ship it. And, of course, if that shop does not have the item it would be sold from another shop.

The benefits: marketing power, stock power, and ease of shipping and volume of shipping to gain benefits. The information circulated would produce real cost savings. And for the customers it would provide superior service and we would know that our money would go for those who really care about magic. Naturally, only proper shops would be included to that syndicate.

Yes yes, I know, impossible, a pipe dream.

Pekka,

interesting, but the main problem is that there will always be someone who wants to make money the "fast" way...

that is : against the rules... and/or without ethics..

then, what about a zipcode where you have 2 or more magicshops?


but, yes, why not dream ...

jacky
www.magicbooks.be

We have that!
H & R

The idea of marketing something through ONE retail portal is attractive.

And because I've met the 'H' in H&R I find that option tempting.

In this age of the internet, and good shipping worldwide... it makes sense to make stuff available only via one or a couple of places.

If you want wizardry for the wealthy, where you get both products and service, might be worth asking those folks to handle the retail for you. Perhaps the next Hofzinser can find a way to make materials available to the magic community without having to compromise on quality of props or instruction or customer service.

Just a thought.

Cellini once made an insightful comment to me

"There should only be four magic shops...
One on each corner of the earth...
All run by grand-masters"

Makes sense to me.

Unfortunately, the exact opposite is happening.

:help:

Great Idea... I have my list of four, but I will not post as the other 9,303 will get ticked at me.

"Manufacturer Says Magic Mints is an authorized version of Colin Gilbert's "Linking Lifesavers" which we also carry and recommend highly."

Isn't it amazing not only do these people want to stock a complete rip of Lifesavers but they also want to have the original as well .... just so they don't lose a few sales. I have never heard of anyone having a rip-off item in stock together with the original! And for the record Magic Mints is not an authorized version of Colin Gilbert's effect. It is just a rip-off.

And now here is a challenge to the people at Penguin: Come on this forum and justify your reasons for pirating Colin Gilbert's effect.

Great news though, if you order 50 bucks worth of knock-offs, you get a free set of Slydini silks along with a routine for doing it!

I honestly can't imagine such a beautiful routine being used as a free give away. It's disgraceful what they are doing to magic, and perhaps the I.B.M. will stop taking their money for advertising in the Linking Ring.

I appear to have become the latest victim of 'Penguin Piracy'. There are more, many more. The reason I am posting this is not for a sympathy vote or to vent my spleen telling you all what I think of Penguin Magic, you will have guessed that already. What this is more aimed at is finding a way to stop this sort of thing from re-occuring. I invented the linking lifesaver in 1994. It took me three years to perfect eveything into a routine, which I then made full use of for the next year. It was a great sucess which then promted me with the idea of marketing it. My reasons for this were, yes 99% financial, but also it puts 'new' magic on the shelves of dealers. That is how it works. If others before me hadn't sold their ideas, Or put them into print etc. I wouldn't have had anything to perform myself, so that's how it began. I haven't got rich by it but I do get a 'buzz' when I see or hear of someone else performing it.
Things were going O.K. until the thieves at Pengin decided to steal it. So where now... do I continue to release more effects only to let Penguin steal them? will any magician/magical inventor want to release his or her latest 'baby'? I think not. The magic market is going stale, with fewer and fewer 'New' releases each time you go to a convention. What is needed, is, some sort of governing body where you could send your magical idea's/inventions (with a fee) for them to be registered etc. Though not a 'proper' patent, it would give the inventor sole marketing rights etc. for x amount of years, during which time if anyone is found illegally making/selling it, they would have all advertising stopped and barred from all conventions. No exceptions. After this time period (I'm guessing about 10 years) the item would then become 'public property'. So it would be up to the inventor to 'cash in' within the time limit or decide not to sell it and keep it to themselves. Simple. So you could release your latest effect with a lot less fear of being ripped-off. I'm sure more new magic would appear on the market. Just an idea. No idea how it would all come together, but it sounds like a step in the right direction if we want this art to survive. Colin Gilbert.

I just came across another knock off of The Life Saver Trick... Its called The Clever candy Trick. The tube is printed LifeSavors.
The quality is not that great, but the price of $15.00 is. I don't know who made it for there is no name on it. I picked this up at a magic Flea Market.

Has anyone else seen this? :whack:

As of 3:33 PM my time, I posted a link of this thread on Penguin's forums.

I wonder how long it takes for it to get deleted.

David.

Hi everyone,

Here in The Netherlands, magicians and dealers who are "dirty" can not advertise anymore in magic catalogue and not permitted to come to any magic conference.
The same we do with magicians who steal from dealers etc.
This people have no chances and stop doing there "things"
I think all the other magic cataloque's in the world must do the same. I know it "costs" advertising money but if shops like pinquin can not advertise in the books and not sell there stuff on conferences,....It take time but he can close his shop!

I certainly hope so. I was shocked to see them advertising in it in the first place.

RSmagic wrote:

How about maintaining a 'Black list' ? ...
problem...neutral people should maintain that list...who will decide ? where do we start?
Jacky
_________________
www.magicbooks.be

There is an oath that IBM members take. I think it would be fair that if shop owner did not follow/beleive in the oath, IBM Linking Ring officials should not be allowing them to advertize in our magazine.

We can start by contacting the editor.

I think every country do have a covering organisation for magicians.
Under there membership you can go to conventions etc.
I think it is there responsibility to keep an eye on the basic rule's like doing the magic no harm.

If the covering organisation do nothing, then the "bigest guy with the biggest mouth" alway's win and that is not an option.
So they can interfere with magicshops, advertising in magic magazine's etc.

With interfering in magazine's I mean that the organisation give's a negative advice to the editor for selling advertise room in the magazine for the magicshop who sells rip-offs.

Before we get a discusion about this,...why we have otherwise a covering organisation?
Only for the "fun" things?
No,..every magician and shop can be a member, but when you do not hold on the rule's, you no longer a member and you can not advertise enymore etc.

(sorry for my english,...I think not everything is written that fine but I hope everyone understands my point)

Ironic for this thread to start on this forum, where, not too long ago, Richard Kauffman, the head honcho in these parts, so they tell me, said in a post, which was at least partially directed at this young student of magic something to the effect of, (and I paraphrase)

"Tough luck kid, this kind of thing has been going on for hundreds of years."

I say that sort of attitude from those that have positions of leadership in this magic 'community' is what makes the process continue.

Time and time again, I hear people say, well, stealing is bad, but I'm sure glad this got on to the market. I.E, the majority of buyers don't care where something came from, or how it came to be marketed...THIS is another attitude that makes the system continue.

But fear not friends, I think someone has set John Galt loose amongst our greatest creators. They are stopping. The men of mind might be going on strike. And if this is so, things will right themselves eventually, when the lights go out in New York, if you will.

However, we could stop it now. It's simple. We research what we buy. We ask permission from the creators of effects if we wish publish them, or parts of them. As a community we banish theives. And I'll say again, if magicians stopped being slimeballs and moochers within the community, perhaps there wouldn't be so many second rate entertainers and slimeballs inflicted on the public! :whack:

Help me out here guys.

Martin is 100% accurate. There is only black & white in this issue; but magicians in the genre do not really know right from wrong, or they don't know the history of the effect.

Besides a magician's opinion on piracy, many other leaders in the magic community such as Genii Magazine and Magic Magazine do not care where their advertising dollars comes from.

They both take ads from companies that rip off Ali Bongo and many others.

It already exists. The Statutory Invention Registration: SEE HERE

That's the part that doesn't work. For example, our IBM Ring will likely host a convention next year. We will be the ultimate authority. And if we make an exception, either deliberately, or just because we have other things to do than run complete inventory and background checks on each of a half-dozen dealers, there is no way to compel us otherwise.

If it is so important, why not patent? Alan Wakeling, Pressley Guitar, Tenyo, Thomas Wayne/Bob Kohler, Lubor Fiedler, John Gaughan, and many others have patented their magical inventions.

Usually the response to this question is "it's too expensive". It seems hypocritical to me for an inventor to decline to spend money to protect his rights, yet to expect others to give up money (publishers to give up ad revenue, for example) to protect those rights for him.

The Clever Candy Trick is made in China by the same Chinese slaves who make all of the knockoffs for Magic Makers. This one is a real dog. Most of the time, the insert is a very sloppy fit. Nevertheless, it has really cut into George Robinson's business.

Penguin is a huge reseller of Magic Makers items.

Regarding the Statutory Invention Registration, you should actually see what the requirements are for using it. It is not cheap, and it is still going to require some research to file a proper application. It's basically an application for a patent without receiving an actual patent. And if there are any "holes" in the application, then it can be thrown out.

The Magic Dealers Association tried to do this a long time ago, but it really didn't work. One of the first items registered with the MDA was the Everlit Candle, which was invented by Frank Lezama. S.S. Adams got tired of paying his price for the candles and knocked them off. There was nothing he could do about it.

Bill, the issue is not so much with getting a patent - that one can do reasonably cheaply. I did my first patent all alone and it cost me about $200 (back in Austria). But even if you go with a lawyer I would say it is affordable for many magic ideas.

However, what does the patent buy you? It only buys you THE RIGHT TO SUE. Nothing more. And here the expensive part starts. I have not run the numbers, but I was told that if the idea isn't worth about a million dollars, meaning you can make a profit of $1 million, there is no point in trying to defend it in court. How many magic tricks can make you a million dollar? And this is the real crux of the matter.

Patents are no solution for magic inventors.

Chris....
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.

Apart from cost of a full world-wide patent (several thousands of dollars or pounds)even if you did go that far, your invention is then published by the patent office on the Internet by espacenet for all the world to see, so for instance how many packet effects would be for sale if all a magician had to do was look on Espacenet, read the workings and obtain the necessary double faced card etc?
The 'governing body' I mentioned earlier wouldn't have to do 'searches' or keep track of ideas/inventions at all, they would only have to intervene when a corrupt dealer had been spotted and reported to them.

Colin,

good point - but it goes even further. As far as I know, the patent office has little to do with ensuring your rights. You can't 'inform' the patent office that a violation of your rights has happened. They couldn't care less. It is up to you to defend your rights and sue the violators. The patent office doesn't help you there.

Chris Wasshuber
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.

Can we all agree that patents are of little use for the majority of magic effects? If so what I mean when I say a 'governing body' is, not the patent office as we know it but more on the lines of a group of people within the magic community where effects could be sent (similar to sending one for a review) where the effect would be given a registration date/number etc. and then simply filed as proof of ownership.(without being published of course).
Any infringements on this would result in the necessary actions being taken by this committee to stop the violators advertising etc. Obviously money for damages would be down to the individual inventor to pursue. But with some sort of proof from the 'committee' a charge of fraud may carry more weight. But at least the violators would be stopped in their tracks. If all agreed from the start - each magic magazine, convention organisers, links on web-sites etc. surely it would go a long way to stopping the rip-off merchants?

When it comes to setting up our own "governing body," the various governments will not take to kindly to this. By setting up our own governing body, we would be usurping the rights of the government agencies involved in such matters.

For example, let's take the Linking Lifesavers trick. You submit it to a registry. Now this registry is not a recognized government agency. It's a trade association. What rights does it have other than telling other people that violators cannot advertise their knockoffs in the trade journals of member organizations. At some point, if there is no "real" registration, i.e. something recognized by the courts, then someone is going to bring a suit against the registration agency and the member organizations for unfair restraint of trade.

If they have enough money, they would most likely win such a case. And you would still have to try to regulate sales over the internet. Basically you would have an organization that is operating outside the definitions provided by law, which is, by definition an extralegal or "outlaw" organization.

May I suggest that this problem goes much deeper than the symptoms of rip-off dealers?

Basic to human nature seems to be the desire to get something for nothing. People need to be educated to resist this basic urge and hence avoid wasted money, time, and resources.

As long as so-called magicians (buying customers) put price above all else, there will be a marketplace in which the rip-off artists will survive and even thrive.

Rather than setting up a new quasi-agency, perhaps we should work within the current system and with resources which are already in place. This would be much more cost effective. It would be very easy to insert a monthly article in all magic journals educating potential customers of riped-off items as to who the real inventors are and why it is better to buy the originals. Actually pointing out differences between the "original" and the knock-off could go a long way towards educating the customers. These monthly columns might even point out that ads from the offending companies might appear in their magazines; but that these products are not supported. (There are other issues involved when accepting ads than appear on the surface. It's not as simple as it would appear.)

Now, this all assumes that the originators make it known which effects are theirs. It also assumes that the original items are of better quality than the rip-offs. Sadly, this not always the case. This would put pressure on the originators to "do it correctly".

There will always be those who want to make a quick/easy buck by ripping off the hard work of others. The key, as I see it, to limiting these types is educating the potential customers. And doing so through existing channels is likely to be the best method of doing so.

If we take away the customers, there will be no rip-off dealers. They need victims to survive.
Jim

So who IS actually breaking the law? Myself by the sounds of it for wanting to stop Penguin the right to 'fair trade' of my effect. Excuse me while I go and bang my head against a wall.....

I have read the thread and have a few comments. I have over the years only commercially produced an instructional video and was very concerned about piracy (pirate copying) and fortunately none occurred to my knowledge because of safeguards I implemented (and/or nobody thought it was good enough to steal!) although the title I copyrighted has been used (borrowed?) by others...I have developed my own presentations for effects I bought/read in books I own and like many, tried to make effects I like 'my own' by imposing my own style.

ok, the comments...

There used to be a group, The Magic Dealers Asociation that would endorse ads found in Genii I have from 60s-70s. I don't see that anymore but as a self-governing, seal of approval type organization it may be of some use to resurrect. Then teach these youngsters to respect the creative process.

Patents, copyrights, etc... One tactic used by some is to register the routine as a theatrical performance with a writer's guild and let them go after people that infringe on your copyright (note: copyright, not 'idea')

Another is to get a patent on the technology used in the effect (i.e., your prop is an invention using specific design and technology) and potect it that way.

Frankly, I think the piracy is a sign of the times. I feel magic is in a saturation bubble where the diminished venues have all the enthusiasts and practicioners and retailers cannabilizing one another. This is combined with the instant gratification so many desire they really don't care how they get the reward or who they screw to get it. Having the respected magazines take their money and worse, have their reviewers offer endorsements in their columns, sets a very bad example..but where else will they get enough money to meet their revenue goals?

Don't fret, it happens in many industries. In lets say TV..if someone has a hit with a type of show there are many knock-offs soon to follow with look-alike scripts and look-alike B actors to replicate the hit at a lesser price. When Blaine got his first hit the rage was re-naming close-up magic as street magic and all the old tricks that go with it. It happened with all the other notables too throughout time... g'wan, pick a name. I remember Magicana had a quote near its masthead (sic) "magic has about 12 people thinking for all the rest, here's some of them.."

Magic today seems to be governed by convention organizers and media publishers. If it can be shown that someone is unethical, they should be refused inclusion. On the other end you have the consumer/practicioner that demands satisfaction at any price and these people are the ones that need their mindsets well, re-set. There is an ethical way to get satisfaction...it just has to be clarified, supported and in some cases, enforced.

Maybe the information age is to blame..but that is a subject of another post.

Nothing will work until society realizes it is greedy, crooked and doesn't respect others.

You're not breaking any law, yet. But Penguin may not be breaking a law, if there is no legal protection for your trick. Please bear in mind that I do not in any way condone what they are doing. It is totally unethical.

To further emphasize their lack of ethics, they have taken to a tactic used by various other groups to assuage their concience (if any.) This is the setting up of a foundation to help kids learn magic, and to entertain sick kids (this from their web site.)

Let's take a look at a different instance, one that all of us can relate to. Remember when Dover republished Modern Coin Magic in paperback? Jay Marshall had forgotten to renew the copyright on the old edition when it expired. So the book went into the public domain, and Dover took advantage of it.

Now, what can you, we, all of us do? You can go over to the Cafe, which is where a lot of their buyers hang out, and make it known that "Magic Mints" is an unauthorized knockoff of your trick, even though they claim it has your approval.

You can put pressure on your local clubs not to book certain lectures. Look at their site, and you will see who I'm talking about.

And you can make sure that your friends do not patronize them.

Colin, how did Penguin go about adding "Magic Mints is an authorized version of Colin Gilbert's "Linking Lifesavers" which we also carry and recommend highly." to their product description for Magic Mints? I am very curious. It sounds as if you certainly have not endorsed the product through your postings here. And if that is the case, what would prompt Penguin Magic to make such a fraudulent statement, given the legalities of making such a statement.

Why wouldn't they? They made a simular product to another magicians and actually used the same name for it he did. The implication was it was the exact same product at 30% the price. That is when I stopped going to Penguin.
Steve V

re: Magic Thought Police:

If you give that authority to others... you usually wind up with more criminals and less justice.

If you want less piracy, buy direct. And if the inventor wants to license his material to a distributer... consider the consequences.

This is going to sound like a dumb question.

Why is Genii accepting advertising from them? I know it might not be advantageous for Richard, but with Genii running ads for them, it's almost as if he doesn't care.

If Genii is a Magicians Magazine, and proposes to have magicians in mind when it's being written, shouldn't the ethics of magicians be in mind when it's published?

I mean, we can whine and stomp our feet all we want, but all that's going to do is give you sore knees.

I'e said it on other forums.. if this had been any other online store beginning with the letter 'E', you guys would have been getting together a lynch mob.

Why is this issue generating such a passive reaction? You should all be PI$$ED! It could be YOU that loses something the next time it happens.

David.

Aside from the pretense that 'I did what I could', there is no reason to whine. Your choices are your own. How you spend your time is up to you. You trade your efforts for money. You trade your money for goods and services. How you use your money is how you exercise your will in this economy.

What are you going to do with that next dollar you wish to spend on magic? Will you buy from the inventors? Will you buy from those who respect the goods and services they offer?

The internet provides connectivity. This BBS provides us both connectivity and community. And many of the inventors are just a few keystrokes away.

Your time, your money, your choices.

But what if, like myself, I haven't licensed any effect to anyone? Is it now simply a case of 'if you have a new effect, keep it. Once you've sold the seceret, you've also lost the rights'?

Don't perform it either or they will take it.
Steve V

I have been trying with no success to leave a message on the penguin forum. Could someone be so kind as to 'paste' the following on their site for me? (Don't know how long it would stay on though). Thankyou in advance. Colin Gilbert.


I have only known the existance of Penguin Magic for the last two weeks. Until then I had never heard of 'Max'. Magic-Mints never has nor will ever be 'approved' or 'authorised' by me. Penguin Magic are selling a blatant rip-off of my effect the 'Linking Lifesaver.' If you require any further proof or information please contact me by e.mail - colinxgilbert@aol.com

The one thing that can make life difficult for dealers who produce copies of magical effects without permission is to be banned from attending conventions and banned from advertising in the major magic magazines.
I made it difficult (in fact impossible) for Sam Gringras to advertise his rip offs of MY Pabular magazine copyrights. People who produced fake copies of my Ted Lesley Marked Decks found that they had problems.
If Genii and the Linking Ring and Magic Magazine respond as they usually do and refuse to accept advertising from unethical dealers then it punishes the dealers substantially and can reduce their sales of other products as well.

I had a reply from someone called Kevin at Penguin Magic in response to my email asking them to stop making and selling Colin's effect.
This is the reply:
Dear Martin,

We are sorry that you feel that way. In any case, it is the manufacturer who you will want to direct these complaints to. We are a retailer.

Sincerely,

Kevin
Penguin Magic

What does Richard have to say about this?

David.

Martin:

Did they tell you who the manufacturer is? I have not been able to track them down. The one company that I thought it might be does not advertise it as their product.

Terry

The discussion about this on the Penguin Magic board is now locked. Makes for interesting reading!

A new thread has been posted asking why the original was locked. This may make for more interesting reading!

Terry

This issue leads down a path to questions about selling chop cups, zombie balls, and what makes a trick 'public domain'.

I suggest we pursue other avenues of discourse and seek solutions other than 'big brother' and 'enforcement' as both lead to the reality that some interests are more 'equal' than others when it comes to how decisions are made.

There was a thread on this today at Penguin. Over seven pages in one day! Deleted. The "moderators" said, with one exception, that the knock-off must be authorized, because Penguin says so. One of them said that Colin here must be a disgruntled ex-Penguin customer, because that's the only possible explanation for disagreeing that it's authorized. :rolleyes:

So, Penguin claims they're innocent in all this; the wrongdoing is on the part of their nameless supplier. I guess that's why they have both the real thing and the imitation, because they're neutral players. I don't buy it. They have to be responsible for whom they buy from. If there's any doubt, they should pull the knock-off, not sell both! An internet search for Magic Mints turns up only Penguin Magic and a blog talking about Penguin Magic, the Genii Forum, and this whole mess. Their supplier has apparently given Penguin exclusive "rights" to push this rip-off. I agree it sounds like a Rob Stiff deal, but it could be Magic Makers, or even an unknown. It's definitely not Murphy's Magic or any other reputable supplier.

Penguin may have been factual (at least in their own eyes), but not entirely truthful, and not at all honest in this whole affair. I've bought my last magic from them. I've had it with the half-truths and mercenary attitude of that company. I should have gotten the message when a reputable company such as L&L Publishing pulled all their videos and DVDs from Penguin Magic. They had to have a reason.

Robert V Frazier

I am passing the following on to you from someone whom I am sure some of you may know through the online magic community; Steve Pellegrnno. Steve, among others including myself have been diligintly working both alone, and together for the common cause to help a fellow magician out. To spread word of what has been going on between Colin Gilbert, Penguin Magic, and an unknown manufacturer who has been churning out knock-offs of Colin Gilbert's effect "Linking Lifesaver".

Here is what Steve has to write....

I have a few posts there about what Penguin is doing to Colin Gilbert. Here are a couple of direct links:

http://magic.atomicbrew.com/index.php?p=38

http://magic.atomicbrew.com/index.php?p=42

The second post has a direct response from Colin. I wrote him earlier tonight for his answers and it's obvious that Penguin is lying to everyone.

Folks, you are kicking a small flightless bird in a market where push and shove are less than productive.

Let's say they back off on that one trick... will the rest of the community back off on offering Swaddling coins? Glorpys? Chop cups?

To Colin - Hey we now know you can be creative, and we have your email address. Those of us who perform or like to play with the kind of magic you produce might be interested in your other works.

Just a few comments.

I must say that I do not really like when Richard is being held responsible these issues. Genii is a magazine that generate revenues from both subscribers and advertisers. It would be extremely difficult for them to look into all advertisers and all of their products to determine whether they can advertise or not. If they would do that, would we be willing to pay $15 per issue? If we all would then there would be no problems.

I know this is a huge dilemma but the best solution can be found among consumers and retailers. Seldomly a retailer or a consumer will buy a magic item without any reserach, right? It would be natural for them (us) to find out if the given product is a fraudulent. specially if someone could post a black list somewhere.

One thing that we could do is to target the people that are, in their own way, associated with piracy. People behind Penguin, Magic Makers, magicians on their payroll or creating exclusive items for them etc etc.

We need their postal addresses and everyone who considers their actions unethical should send a letter stating that. Of course, for that we would need some proof here that they are, in fact, acting unethically.

Yes, it is a long road but sometimes effective.

Another actions could be taken by the inventors of magic who condems their actions. A full page advertisement in major magic magazines stating that the following inventors will not contribute to certain companies, will not agree with their statements, and will not licence any products for those companies. If the list would be impressive enough, I think, the results could be highly effective. I am sure the magazines would give a good discount for the ad rates.

my 2 cents.

Pekka and all,

That path leads to all sellers of chop cups, zombies, glorpies, anyone who has published a 3fly ... and from there to folks like Copperfield and Kaufman for direct/indirect/knowing/unknowing involvement in the spread of pirated material. Such a mud fest is of no benefit to anyone. And certainly not to our community.

I suggest we move in a better direction and use our resources in this community to make the place better. The one way you can make this place more ethical is to act more ethically yourself. This can be as simple as honoring those whose material you use and purchasing their works that you use. If you perform card warp, it is no great burden to pay the few dollars for the manuscript or a book by the inventor with the trick in it. And heck you might also get a few new gems to perform if you buy the book.

As to how to make new purchases... perhaps if you asked yourself what the item means to you, you would find some guidance about how to acquire it.

A couple of comeents.

First, I didn't know you could copyright a title.

Second, what Colin suggests may be practical. The Writer's Guild of America-West has (or used to have) a registration service for scripts and treatments.

You would send a copy of the script or treatment plus a $20 fee ($10 for WGAw members).

In return you receive a receipt from the WGAw.

They state that this is in no way a copyright (you should have already done that). What it does do is establish a date of conception which could be used as evidence in any future legal action against an infringer.

The initial registration good for 5 years.

More information is here: http://www.wga.org/

Click on the "Writers" box on the left and then Registration.

This could be done for the magic industry, I think. It might be done through SAM or IBM or it could be a separate entity. Hmmmmm.

Anyway that's my $ 0.02 and that's two cents less than Penguin will get from me.

Has anyone tried to file 'boy meets girl' and suing all future such stories?

Some folks use correspondence to record ideas etc.

And this still brings us to expensive legalities and deferring our better judgment to the judgment of our betters whose interests may not coincide or even value our own interests.

You filed, you did what you could/should, and nobody can say you didn't try... kind of a 'moo' point, but at least someone got a few bucks.

Here a comment from me. (I hope you can read it all)
Here in The Netherlands you have Tax collectors offices.
You can get with your idea, script, invention, etc. to a office and get there (for less then $20.00) a date stamp.
If there is someone who ripp your idea then they have to prove that they had the idea, script, etc earlier then yours when you go to court!
Offcourse,.when the person change a little the original or your idea is stolen international, then everything is again more complicated.
But, this little work it helps!

I think in every country you can do the same like here in The Netherlands.

Richard

Hey Ray, why don't you and I compile a list of young, naive "magi", who have "invented" a trick or "created" a routine. We could contact them and offer to "register" their works for a fee of ten dollars. hehehe

The facts are that there is very little that is absolutely new or innovative, and, even if one comes up with something "new", trying to enforce protection would almost always be more costly than losses. Besides, most of the stuff we see for sale on the "popular" web sites were once contributed fodder to little magic magazines, rather than the brain poots which are being hawked at rediculous (but obtainable-from-stupid-people) prices.

Yeah, let's do that! It would give us enough money to attend all conventions where we could compile bigger lists....

(Look for a vanity "registration" ad to pop up on some of the kiddie magic webs.... :p :rolleyes:

opie

But you can still patent an improvement on an existing device.

How specifically, does this help our buddy whose lifesavers may have been pirated by a penguin?

And what do you suggest for those of us who would prefer to see our good works sold in a safer harbor?

Jonathan, I thought my post was clear that I do not have any answers you might like, regarding how to protect "ideas" and innovations.

I will say, however, that I used to advise poets who were worried about copyright. I told them that the definition of a paranoid is a poet who is afraid to leave home, in fear that a burglar might break in and steal his poems....I think many "creative" magicians have approximately the same egos and the same problem....If you do not think it is a problem, take a look at what is being sold on Penguin and by whom....

For the record, I believe that people who steal other people's ideas and peddle them should be horsewhipped, but we cannot very well do that, can we? And our laws protect the dingle berries.

What do you propose as a solution? There is no cost-effective legal way to protect "ideas", at least not any I know of. You might consider an application of some "whoop axx", but that could get costly too....The old masters took enough pride in their secrets to take them to the grave and did not try to con great masses of young kids into buying them....

Maybe we should all go back to the times when we just contributed our ideas to magazines and did not worry about trying to make a few bucks...

opie

Reminds me of the time I wrote about Tannen's ripping off Ken Brooke's exclusive items.

Spina wrote me a letter explaining WHY.

The letter was a perfect indictment of Spina that I published the letter verbatim.

Basically, what he said was something like, "If a customer comes in and wants a Ken Brooke item, and Ken doesn't wholesale it, I HAVE TO HAVE THEM MADE so I can make the sale."

Huh?

I mean, I go into a Chevy dealer and ask for a Ford, so that dealer starts to make Fords so he can make the sale?

Pete, what you say is exactly the problem. There are dealers who will do what you mentioned. If the problem is to be solved, it will more than likely have to be a dealers' association which will start class action suits on behalf of the creators of tricks against those who use the old copy machine to make a living. The "tort" involved might be that all the dealers collectively are being harmed by the unsavory practice of an individual dealer. It might work.

The individual creator just does not have enough power to frighten anybody. WAM tried to stop thefts, but it died for lack of long-term support of the major magic clubs and the knowledge of violators that nobody could touch them.

I would not hold my breath until thefts end, no matter how many class-action suits might be won. As long as "creators" put a hundred-dollar price tag on a two-dollar trick, there are going to be "dealers" who will jump on the copy-machine bandwagon...

Like I said before, I don't have any answers that might be a permanent fix on the problem...

opie

This is exactly the defeatist language we need to avoid if we are to make some progress.

How does it benefit an inventor to have their product sold by a large number of vendors?

Does the internet manage the advertising / POS distribution problem effectively?

How much does a hands on/live demo affect product sales as compared to;
a) no demo just print copy
b) print copy with pics
c) online video

Questions leading to useful answers. Magic used to be leading edge in hi-tech in our society. Let's get back on track here.

To Colin - Hey we now know you can be creative, and we have your email address. Those of us who perform or like to play with the kind of magic you produce might be interested in your other works. [/QB][/QUOTE]

You might be interested, but how long before Penguin got interested? This is not just my problem. It affects all of us whether your a performer, dealer or inventor. If you stand a chance of an effect being ripped off you will not want to let it out, so to quote earlier on this page 'you will take it to the grave' The better the effect, the more chance of it being copied. So you end up with only the 'poorer' effects that no one cares about being copied and peddled on dealers tables.

Thank you Jonathan...I think that is the first time in my life I have ever been called a "defeatist". Most of my friends call me a pushy SOB.....

I sympathize...I really do...

opie

Gentlemen,

I'm surprised to hear Colin state that he has not authorized the Magic Mints product. I'm especially surprised because I recently wrote a large check with Colin's name on it in exchange for the very "permission" he claims not to have granted.

We're not even the manufacturer, but we figured before selling it we'd try to put a deal together with Colin so we could use his name in the marketing.

I have never spoken with Colin directly. The deal was put together through Magic City (the US distributor of the Linking Lifesavers item). (That's where I sent your check, Colin.)

Time will tell that we're an innovative and ethical company, and we'll win the confidence of the magic community.

It is true that we believe in competition. But, we believe in fair competition. We've never made a deal we didn't honor, and we've never lied about a deal we made.

I don't always have time to respond as thoroughly as I'd like because I'm out working on new video projects and putting together new deals with inventors. But, I know that in time my company will shine as an innovative group of people working hard to serve our customers as they entertain the world.

If anyone has any questions for me please feel free to email me directly at maxwell@penguinmagic.com.

Sincerely,

Maxwell Murphy
Penguin Magic

You couldn't find me so you struck up a deal with someone else?
as you won't reply to my e.mails please answer the following questions.

When did you first start to sell Magic Mints?
What is date on the check?

Please post your answer on here.

Colin, I do believe that you have asked some good questions of the good "Bird" man. You have established that (1) he admits to selling YOUR trick, regardless of the name on it; (2) he says that he had your permission, but you say he did not..

Jonathan, my humblest apologies; it appears that bitching does work, at least to get a response, if you have a big enough audience....

Penguin: We all wait for your response to Colin here, or you can come over to Magic and Illusion and we can have a long discussion about the cuckoo bird, which lays its egg in another's nest, which has nothing to do with this topic, but I do like to talk about birds...

opie

As a business person, I am very disturbed by the conversations between Colin and Penguin being discussed in an open forum.

This is business between two companies (i.e. small companies), but airing dirty laundry in public doesn't bide well for either company in the long run.

Might be best to take it to email, then post a resolution in the forum(s), when it is resolved.

I've owned a business 16 years and learned my lesson long ago about discussing things like this in an online open forum, it does more harm, than good.

Rick

Colin has been trying to do just that, but Penguin won't respond. Penguin made the rather unbelievable claim in public that the creator of a magic trick authorized a cheap knock-off of it. I think that claim should be substantiated in public.

Robert V Frazier

Colin has done his "due diligence" in dealing with the situation in a professional manner. Penguin and himself could have come to a mutual agreement in private, but it appears the "due diligince" was not reciprocated. And so here we have it. A discussion regarding this issue opened on several fronts across the world in the magic community. There are at least 5 magic forums, and 1 blog that I have personally witnessed and contributed to. Though there may be more.

I like the idea of handling this matter privately. I haven't received any emails from Colin, and that's the only reason I haven't responded. Since we had a deal I didn't think it necessary to discuss the matter further.

I did respond to an email from Martin yesterday, and I'm happy to respond to other questions privately. My email is maxwell@penguinmagic.com.

In reading this thread you see countless references to one person "ripping off" another person. Each time the former thinks the latter is a skunk. This is a pattern that goes back to the end of time in all aspects of life.

That's because we all operate in a marketplace that serves consumers... not inventors, manufacturers, distributors, or retailers. My advice for inventors of all types is this: protect yourself legally, market your ideas efficiently, and work to figure out better ways of doing both. Just because you had an idea doesn't mean you deserve to profit from it. You've got to work for that too. The guy who invented toothpaste didn't make a dime. Now that's a great effect that I use everyday!

We often get accused of being market vultures. That's because (like all major retailers in the "real" world) we believe in providing our customers with choices when they exist in a marketplace. That's why we sell both the Magic Mints product and the Linking Lifesavers product. We would rather everyone bought Linking Lifesavers at $45 (we quite a bit more each time we sell one), but we understand that not everyone has $45 for a $.05 gimmick.

But, we're actually not market vultures at all. We don't manufacture knock-offs. All of the products we manufacture are innovative. We do sell knock-offs, and we don't think they're wrong or bad for magic, but we don't manufacture them ourselves... that's just not what gets us excited. We're innovators. We like working extra hard and coming up with new stuff and better products.

Like I said, time will show as we release the many Penguin Magic manufactured products that are in the pipeline.

As I mentioned on another forum, I wonder when we will see a new "Linking Coathangers" on the market?

Terry

I will lay 10 to 1 that Maxwell Murphy is not your real name, but any dolt could figure that out.

But your are a vehicle to rip off items, plain and simple. Your last post is ridiculous. I know as well as many who you are and your modus operandi. Let us see is you can handle a federal lawsuit.

hey good luck.

This is great, but I don't think the government would take the time and effort to do this since there are already copyright, patent, and the like. A few months back, either Genii or Magic (I am away so I don't have the magizines with me) had a nice article on these legal means of protecting your work, and it seems there is no easy answer when it comes to magical creations/gaffs. It almost seems that you need to keep everything to yourself and make the money performing. I don't think it will end, everyone want's to save money, I know I don't like to buy so much now, because even if you buy something "original" it doesn't mean it is good.

The question of ethics seems to be the main thing here. The people buying from Penguin don't come to these forums, they are all magicians of "the digital age", easy access online, and have probably never been to a REAL magic store, let alone met a magician who is a PRO. Just keep buying from the right places, and do your part. I really think that is all you can do.

....How much stuff coming out really is original?

Scott

As I am willing to bet that, that is not really Colin Gilbert. Rather a disgruntled penguin customer seeking revenge.

I thought Penguin had no disgruntled customers?

And what's with the funny pseudonym? This is an adult board; we like to use real adult names and have real adult discussions here. People hiding behind a pseudonym must have something to hide :-)

It was ever thus...
Perhaps the creators didn’t but someone did:
Expert Card Technique.
Unauthorized speculation.

Is this worse or better than what Penguin has done? Does it matter?

We can and should boycott Penguin. The fact that others have done the same or worse does not mitigate their actions, nor should it give them a free pass.

I am with Geno on the name...is it an attempt make folks think they are dealing with Maxwell or Murphy?
Steve V

I do agree there, not everyone does have $45 for a $.05 gimmick. But you still charge upwards of $15 for a .05 gimmick. My, 'gimmick' on the other hand is worth far more than $.05 and you know it and I have it on good authority that it is one of MY lifesavers that you use in your advertising video. Yet again you are conning your customers. I am not giving away any secret here as the gimmick has been exposed in many reviews over the years, (and it's my secret to give away anyway). You say you haven't recieved any e.mails from me, that is another lie. To quote you from your earlier post you 'figured you would try to put a deal together with Colin before you started selling it.' So you intended selling it anyway? That is what this 'Check' is all about. You didn't boither to contact me at all, you didn't even reply to my e.mails after you realised that I knew. Only after all the flack you have recieved you probably sent a check for What amount? Who too? Who decided the value? This isn't the way to conduct a reputable business. The Genuine Lifesavers that you speak about, who supplies them to you? Certainly not me. Same rip-off different package? But customers go away with a clear concience thinking they have bought the genuine article.
Meanwhile you NOW KNOW I am not happy so why won't you stop selling Magic Mints? You will stop eventually and publish that you have done the honourable thing, but not untill you have flooded the market with inferior, cheap worthless tat and then laughed all the way to the bank. Not only laughing at me but also each and every customer you have ripped-off.
If you are an honest man with a reputable company as you say, withdraw Magic Mints today.

Are faked Rolexes, Fendi bags etc. also acceptable. What if they would be sold by Tiffany?

I suggest everyone to real The Art of Steal book. There are some excellent thoughts on fake items that can also be connected to knock-off items.

I truly cannot follow your logic. You want to be innovative but if some one copies your idea and produces it in some 3rd world country very cheaply you are ok with that? You would not mind if I would take your ideas, find some poor kinds in Estonia to manufacture them, and sell them via ellusionist?

At the same time, if you could, as if Jay Sankey would mind that either? I am packing my bags and off to Estonia to find some employees, will take orders shortly.

I thought of one. Penguin sells Neil Tobin's The Xpert. Neil put a lot of time, effort, and thought into that product. He based it on Kenton Knepper's "X" manuscript, and made a real contribution to magic with this excellent product.

But, the gimmick it uses can be made easily by anyone, using common office supplies. What if I were to start cranking out the gimmicks, typed up some instructions that gave away all of the effects and routines in Neil's booklet and website, not as well-written and in my own words, then put it together in a package and called X-it? Would Penguin Magic sell that for $10 a pop?

That's a rhetorical question. Maxwell has just said that he would. "We do sell knock-offs." The new slogan for Penguin Magic. People, don't let Maxwell sugar-coat it: knock-offs are stolen goods. Pure and simple. In the scenario I outlined above, I would be stealing Neal Tobin's intellectual property. He did all the work, all I would be doing in such a case is cashing in on his work at his expense. He did the research and development, the marketing, the patient and generous donating of his time to answer questions asked by a bunch of kiddies at Penguin, and all I would have to do is crank out the cheap copies of his words and cobble together the same gimmicks he invented.

Maxwell Murphy wouldn't "get excited" enough to do that, but he admitted he has no scruples about selling it if I did.

Well, I do have ethics and I would never rip Neil Tobin off like that. I have too much respect for him, for the magic profession, and for myself to do that. Besides which I believe in God and would not knowingly violate the law, "You shall not steal." Number eight in the Ten Commandments, remember?

God help us all if that prophecy comes true. If Maxwell's brand of "ethics" does win the confidence of the magic community, what incentive is there for the thinkers and creators of new magic to release it to anyone in any manner? If the magic community is okay with stealing such intellectual property, no sensible creator will release anything but junk that's so bad, he doesn't care whether it's stolen or not.

Robert V Frazier

P.S. I have read The Art of the Steal: How to Protect Yourself and Your Business from Fraud, America's #1 Crime by Frank W. Abagnale. (You may have heard of his first book, Catch Me If You Can, recently a movie was made from it staring Leonardo DeCaprio and Tom Hanks.) The Art of the Steal is an excellent book, and the chapter on knock-offs explains just what's wrong with selling them. It's just as much stealing as is making the knock-offs. Worse in some ways, because without retailers to sell them, the counterfeiters who crank out the knock-offs would have no market outside of back alleys and 7-11 parking lots.

Reminds me on a recent NBC Dateline report about the knock off market and producers in China. The bottom line was that it is extremely tough to counter such widespread activities.

Chris Wasshuber
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.

This path is just a step away from making the argument that anyone selling a zombie, chop cup, glorpy, invisible deck, 3fly, ... is no better, and that once muddied, only the waters of commerce in our free market can clean our hands again. Shades of Macbeth! Will not an internet of knowledge wash this mud from our faces?

If the guy and 'that company' can reach an agreement about the manufacture and distribution of HIS trick... great.

Let's work with the positive things here. Their discussion seems to have started and we can support their efforts to seek a win/win outcome. I for one have no idea how this situation evolved, so will not offer comment beyond suggesting that a roll of lifesavers seems a pretty cool substitute for a purse full of coins. Jumbo lifesavers? Explosion made from lifesavers? Lots of options here.

* yes i did mention my coin trick above. I do not recall being asked or giving permission for that thing to go public. I feel there is nothing to be gained by stopping/reversing the wheels of the machine ... and instead am suggesting we replace some parts of that machine.

Can we have some more space in print for those who wish to announce/perform novel effects? Beyond first showing the thing in front of magicians, wouldn't it be great to get public notice? Perhaps we can institutionalize this process of recognizing novelty and honoring those who have realized these novel conceptions.

Richard, does this work for you in the magazine? As part of the write ups for conventions and meetings etc?

Bill, I do not like companies which PREY ON KIDS. Most of them will also not hesitate to rip off new routines and effects that enter the market. It is the nature of that type of beast.

The most-obvious solutions are to boycott them, publically ridicule them, or take them on legally...The latter solution is usually not cost effective; ridicule just fills threads like this and gets them more business; and boycotting them does not work, because starry-eyed young kids, with more money than they need, seldom know about nor care about the boycott.

In the meantime, "inventers" see in the kiddie webs an opportunity to peddle a two-dollar trick for fifty bucks. Now, I don't have any problem with people making money, but I really do have a problem with exploitation. It only serves to attract more and more rip-off magic shops, and the wide-eyed kids just keep buying the crap, most of which has appeared in books and magazines of yesterday.

Hey, let us all recall what we should have learned in kindergarden; we are not supposed to touch other people's things, and we are supposed to look after one another, not exploit each other.

If the shoe fits......

opie

Wear it?
Buy it?
Make your own?
Mass produce them?

How do you feel about the use of magazines to announce new stuff, and a policy of making such novelties hands off in the market place?

Yes folks, this is an ethical question. Does this suggested policy make good sense to you?

The problem of setting up a police force in a free-enterprise system is that there is a tendency for the peer pigs on the force to become more equal than the others.

Jonathan, I have read enough of your stuff to know that you are not naive enough to think that you can stop a money-making practice in a free-enterprise system. Remember how the government announced that it was going to cut out booze and drugs?

We do not differ in our abhorrence of the topics addressed here.

One of my favorite characters is Don Quixote, and I love a person who won't give up; keep on keeping on!

opie

I'm suggesting that there are some benefits to publishing findings of novelties as they are presented. It might make a nice column in the magazine and could even be popular... kind of like when discoveries are shown on the news.

And that THOSE WHO CARE will notice these things and respect the inventor's wishes about the material. This could lead to a publication of the full item/method, a small private market for the item or a larger manufacturing setup.

Sure, there will always be copyists and profiteers. The free market supports the demand as presented. Ultimately it is the responsibility of us as adults to own the effects of our demand.

The good habits of MOST of the community will probably provide for most inventors.

Just to let you all know I am still e.mailing the relevant people at Penguin and the magazines and the web sites that penguin advertise on but as yet only Phil Wilmarth of the linking ring has replied. Nothing from any of the others. not even a reply to say the are considering my particular case. I hope I'm wrong but it appears to be a case of 'Honour amongst thieves'. Penguin steal from me and their advertisers share the spoils. So up until now ethics and honest living I suppose have stopped me from copying other peoples effects. It is wrong, but through these forums I have read comments like 'you're on you're own kid' and 'don't whine or whinge if you haven't spent a fortune protecting it' and 'What's wrong if someone improves on your idea?' So who can stop me from selling any copy of any effect on e.bay? Twisted sisters? NFW? etc. etc. If theres no patent etc. on the effect what are you going to do. Get in touch with ebay to stop me? why, what am I legaly doing wrong? How can they stop me 'fair trade' (as was also quoted) as what Legal offence would I be commiting? Belive me, judging by the e.mails I have recieved I am not the only one beginning to think this way. There is a lot of 'would be rip-off merchants' watching and waiting for the outcome on this.
As a final note, to quote Maxwell 'a $.05 gimmick' If the gimmicks he is selling cost him that much how good is it? a faked (double faced) card for example would cost considerably more than that.

Jonathan and Colin:

The windmills are winning....keep on hacking...I admire your energy.....opie

Colin, If you have a product to sell, how about dropping a note to a few of your potential customers? Or just posting notice about the status of your inventions.

Joe Porper and James Riser have been making things and selling some things for quite a while. Folks who want some of their work can contact them. If they have mass produced the item, they can get passed along to an AUTHORIZED retail outlet.

Even the small guys can work with a local shop to handle the on-site sales etc.

Penguin's post reminds me about one from Spina/Tannen's years ago where he JUSTIFIED selling knock-offs because his customers wanted a trick that he did not have the rights to sell, let along manufacture.

Triple Argh!!!!!!!!!!!

What greedy jerks.

There's the rub. I have been selling through an authorised retail outlet, but unfortunately someone connected to Penguin has bought one and so here we are. The only power we seem to have is the Magazines etc. blocking adverts but most just don't seem bothered. Keep an eye on ebay. It appears that's the only way to fight back. Dirty. Un-ethical. I know but if you can't beat 'em etc. etc. etc. If anyone can tell me how I can be stopped from selling on ebay (as they won't stop my adverts) then maybe I might get some insight into what to do about Penguin. Maybe if I rip someone else off and someone rips me off and some else rips someone else etc. etc. Keep an eye on ebay. Sounds like there's going to be some bargains!

Could this mean the discount stuff on ebay might be penguin droppings?

Anything I can get my 'grubby, dirty, money grabbing thieving hands on. I won't make them of course it, er, will er, be a 'manufacturer' you understand, I will purley be an honest 'dealer' working towards the good for all magicians. Honest. So anything you fancy? Just name it. Drop me an e.mail and I will beat any price. Or how about a make your own service? Tell me what you want to know and for a couple of dollars I will send you the necessary info. How about a new Website - www.anythingyouneededtoknowaboutmagicbutwereafraidtoask.com?
Who could stop me advertising on that?
See how easy it is? So if anyone realy cares about this art ask the relevant mags and web-sites that Penguin advertise on what they intend to do. 'we'll wait and see the outcome' will probably be their reply. Well if nothing is done to force the correct outcome the only outcome will be that Penguin will continue to rip everyone else off with 'Legitimate Knock-off's'????? Like Maxwell say's Theres nothing wrong in that. Keep watching ebay.

At this point it looks like the manufacturer of these Magic Mints may have pulled a fast one on Penguin. Not to mention a fast one on everyone who assumed Penguin was the culprit. Well, the story is still unfolding. Hopefully all the information will come out soon, to find out just exactly what the heck happend.

Has anyone contacted the manufacturers yet? I think that is where this mess all started. Both for Colin, and for Penguin.

I am appalled to hear people speaking of selling knock-offs of someone's products as retaliation. I don't know who is kidding and who is not.

But at any rate, I would like to make something clear about why I am in this thread.

Here we are, trying to help a fellow magician out with his problems. Wether they are factual or simply accusations. And people have the nerve to suggest selling knock-offs?

I put my time into this issue, because of my own ethical beleifs. Not because someone is getting ripped off. I have put a lot of thought into this, and I don't really care about the possible monetary damages. They can be saved for civil court.

I care about the possibility of someone paying for a magical product they beleived to be "Authorized" when in fact it may not be authorized at all. I care about the credit and recognition to the creator of the effect.

Creating knock-offs of the company who created knock-offs of yours simply do not make this issue more ethical. If this entire problem was not about ethics, but instead money, I wish neither Martin nor Colin had brought the issue up in a magic discussion forum in the first place.

I am trying to get a response out of the only people who can help me. The Magic mags. etc. But no joy. I am trying to make a point that if no-one dose anything this situation is going to get worse. There are more 'Penguins' than I ever imagined. Talking on here between ourselves is not going to help the problem, only let people know that one exists. Yes, I wish Martin hadn't had to bring it up for discussion, but I think it was worthwhile (in the begining). All it seems to have achieved is to fuel my anger and frustration-And not only with Penguin. Suprising though how a few people are disgusted with my 'ebay project' and yet condone what Penguin are doing.??? Sorry for boring you all this last week, so for my part, end of discussion.

Hi Colin
Keep up the good fight! I for one will boycott "Penguin"

Rudy

Gee, while Colin is correct Jonathon is also correct. A creator should, as a courtesy at minimum, be allowed to produce their creation for a period of time before the vultures start picking at it. Jonathon is correct that many things in magic have improved and moved forward by work done by individuals based on others creations.

I'll avoid the penguin, as I already do. Oh, Colin, you mention NFW and the potention of knock offs, that is a knock off of Jason Alfords Twixter.
Steve V

I use this name on every magic forum

and I still stick with my original opinion on this......this so called "Colin Gilbert" that is making these posts on here is an imposter!

Cowboy:

Your ignorance regarding this subject is profound. How about YOU provide the proof required to clear your 'beloved' Maxwell. Because I think Maxwell is just a disgruntled magician who couldn't create his own material.

Touche.

Colin... I am all for helping you any way I can.

David.

I think there is an important different between imitation (knock-off) and improvement (same effect/item but better). When someone creates a safer method for a ring flight, I believe, we can all agree that it is an improvement not a knock off. But what if someone merely improves the price? I say it is a knock-off and only benefits those who do not truly appreciate magic?

Of course, some items will fall into a public domain. But it should not happen while the original creater is still actively marketing the item, without the creators approval, and even then it should hopefully have some improvements.

Actually if you look at Jasons Twixter and then at NFW you'll find that it isn't an improvement at all but a lesser version made more easy.
Steve V

I am also what they called an "inventor" and here is my opinion.

As inventor (when I release an item) I keep my money in my pocket now for the waste of trying to protect my effect.
The money I have not spend on that, I shall use for a vew very good friends also "hackers" named.
If there is an internet magicshop who rip-off my effect, I shall pay that "friends" to "bomb" the internetsite for a month of so,...with this the site is not working!
This would my new defence for that kind of people!
(And I have more of that idea's!)

Ok,..I have spoken.

For the other part,...as inventor I think you must realice 2 things.
Do I have an effect for the "whole magic community" or do I have an item only for maximum 20 performers/collectors?
This is very important!!
If you have an item for "the whole magic community", then you have to hold your price low!
Why? If your price is low (for example it cost you $15.00 to make it and you sell it for $25.00) Other people do not try to make it also because they never earn the money in a quick and secure way! Lets face it,...rip-off people are also businessmen! They calculate and calculate,....if it is not worth,...they do not copy!

Or,......Make an item with that special technic, that difficult and so beutifull. (for example, James Riser, Richard Gerlitz, etc.) Then also it take to much costs and time to copy that!
Conclusion,...ripp-off price would be also high!

Or,..last one,....Make for example 20, 50, 100 items wich are numbered including signed certification and warranty!

Personaly I think these are the 3 "golden" rules for inventors!

***I see lots of "inventors" who have red an old book,..change a little with the "modern" technics and voila,....they like the cashflow!***
(Now I do not name names but also here there are a couple of "well known" magicians/inventors who do this "trick" .....and now the fun part,....They are very angry when other people ripp-off "there hard work" ........It's a funny world!

Richard

***sorry for my english,...I hope you understand my writing.****

I have never seen The Twixter, unfortunately. But how much easier is the handling in NFW? When a product crosses the line from an imitation to innovation is, naturally, a subjective one. It is a matter of opinions.

Luckly we have this forum where we can discuss about these issues. If I would have read Steve's post a couplke years back I would not have bought NFW. It is a long road but we're walking on it...

P.S.

What about products that are not being made at the moment e.g. Jerry Andrus Linking Safety Pins?

Why don't you ask Jerry at:

andrusj@peak.org

opie

http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=905

Please tell me that's not Kenton's Bent Cent.

David.

I found out that the item was coming out through Magic Makers,
The above is a quote from Maxwell Murphy at Penguin from an email he sent to Colin Gilbert.

I started all of this discussion by raising a simple issue of how to handle dealers who sell and/or manufacture rip-off magic items. It is clear that Penguin are selling the rip-off and believe that having rip-off items for sale is not unethical in any way. Tannens had the same policy regarding Ken Brooke items (as mentioned by Pete Biro) and the same policy regarding the Ted Lesley Deck which I own. Their argument was that they were buying it from a "guy up north".

Well Maxwell Murphy (surely not his real name) has revealed who makes the effect and that is Magic Makers Inc. I know nothing about them but again I challenge them to respond to this. If you are making Linking Lifesavers or a rip-off thereof for Penguin then please come on this site and justify why you believe you should be entitled to manufacture something without the inventor's permission. Penguin did at least respond to my earlier challenge and now it is your turn.

Penguin Magic is located in Las Vegas, Nevada. We sell magic tricks, DVDs, videos, and performance supplies to magicians of all skill levels throughout the world.
This is our passion. We do things a little differently than other magic stores. We have a vision of the perfect place to learn to be a magician, and we work everyday to bring that vision to life. ...........quote from the Penguin site.

MUST BE ALL VISION AND NO REALITY!

Bent Cent is Ray Koenig's, not Kenton's

Magic Makers. The same people who made the rip-off called The Penetration Wand that Penguin had to pull after pressure was put on them at the Magic Cafe by the inventor of Stir-Fry, the original of which The Penetration Wand is a cheap knock-off.

Here we go again.

Robert V Frazier

O.K. one more attempt at what I am trying to achieve here. It may be of interest to other inventors that have recently been put into a similar predicament.

This is not an advert.

I can tell you everything as I perform this effect surrounded and to other magicans.
You place a deck of cards (in the case) upright on it's long edge.(representing the great wall of china) you then stand one match-stick or half a cocktail stick (representing you know who) up against the deck. GENTLY cover with a silk. -by-play- Remove silk and match-(cocktail) stick is now on the other side. Yes it's (he's) passed right through. No-reset. Undetecable.Everthing examinable. Very simple to perform but very easy and cheap to copy.
This is the only effect I perform that I have not yet passed on. To-anyone. But If someone can come on here and tell me how to 'market' this and guarantee none of the headaches that lifesavers have recently caused me, if you want them, you will be offered exclusive sales rights. (no private e.mails please. The answers are intended to serve all magical inventors)

It's not just kids they Prey On. Every Dad or Uncle that wants to learn a "something cool to do at Christmas" or for the kids will be an unwitting participant as well.

Scott

* First, thanks for letting us know you have invented a close up version of the walking through a wall trick, using a deck of cards as the wall. Bravo!

Okay, now we know the trick is yours. If you are offering it, good. If you authorize its sale via a vendor, also good for you.

Unfortunately, the headaches are related to your feelings and not directly caused by the behavior of others. Others will do what they do. The only thing you can control is your response.

Some folks like to get originals, and some folks are happy to buy knock-off items based on price. No idea here what to say about those people beyond suggesting that they might not be so happy if they were paid in counterfeit money.

While most in this community are willing to presume authenticity of offerings by dealers, it remains unfair to EXPECT the purchaser to investigate each item offered to ensure the rights of the inventor.

I can only suggest writing it up and publishing it in a book. Then at least you're covered by copyright law, and you can include text saying that your book (or booklet) is the only authorized verision of the trick. You could publish it as an e-book, and price it low enough that there would be no profit in stealing it. It's too bad that such measures are necessary.

Anyway, I'd be interested in buying such an effect, if you ever do find a relatively safe way to release it!

Robert V Frazier

Thought I'd get this in before this thread gets locked.

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy

I can gladly say that I don't. And it is besides the point, just because some people do things that are unethical does not justify our wrong doing. Even if we are acting unethically ourselves it does not mean that you can act unethically. (political reference could be the whole terrorism mess around the world. Only the victims are truly innocent)

Colin,

The only way I can see a cure for your headache is to license your products to someone. For instance, find a marketing guy and make a deal with him. He will then find the best way to produce your items and to sell them. You will simply forget it and receive your licensing fees.

I believe that one problem with creators is that they may be too close to the actual item they created. Thus, cost savings and distribution efficiency may not be their priority, hell, some engineers do not even believe in marketing (my former boss didn't understant to the need for a colour since grey worked just fine).

There is no real cure for piracy but as you can see there are a lot of people arounf who want to do the right thing. Hopefully you can take some comfort out of that and from the fact that these people are here for long-term.

No problem Randy, and may all your guilt be by association. Do you really want to know, or was this a demand that others feel bad about themselves?

The stated goal here is to find ways to do better than we have.

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy

****************************************************************************************************

Randy,

I know what you are trying to say but this is something differend.
A couple of years ago we bought LP's, Singles and we listing music from a needle and had movie's from VHS tape.
There where complanes but it worked and everyone was happy.
Than there was "the industry" with a new technic!
It was digital,...much better then we used that days! We where "fools" if you did not chaged to CD and DVD!
And,....the most importand point,.....It was much cheaper to produce, so the prices where going to go down,...with a maximum of 40% in future! (first you had to pay high price's because of the new technics offcourse)
We are a couple of years further and is the price lower then the LP, VHS? Nope,...the price are much higher!
First the Industry oblige us consumers to buy new readingmachines for the new cd's and DVD and then they make the prices higher instead of lower!

Ofcourse I want a original CD from "my" populair band or artist but "my" money do not go to that artist, no it goes to the music industry bandids like SONY etc!
The music industry is complaning that nobody buy CD's and DVD anymore! Offcourse we don't! We are not stupid!
If the music industry lower there prices as promised then the most of the people wants the ORIGINAl!

So, back to magic,.....If an inventor has invented a trick with a match and a deck of cards, he can not ask for example $40.00 for it.
Simple! (I do not know the name now of that person, sorry,..this is also not personal,...I use this as an example)

Before I get lots of discusion about this,....think then what you do when you want to buy a car, chair, desk, hand tools etc.
If you want to pay lots of money for an item you want QUALITY, SERVICE and WARRANTY back for your money!
And here is the next problem,....when I by a trick and it is realy crap, I do not get my money back because of "knowing now the explanation of the effect"
This is not right also!!

make copy's of an effect? It is not right but I can "understand" why some people do this.

As mentioned before, there has to be a turn in inventing, bying and selling a magic effect.

The inventor has to make quality and stand for that with Waranty, money back when not satisfied etc. (Ther are gladly a couple of inventors/magicshops who do this allready)

Inventor has to ask a "fair" price. (Not ask $100.00 for a normal plastick box of tissue's)

Inventor has to listen to the buyers/customers so updating the effect is possible. (there are also gladly enough inventors who do this allready)

so there is more then only making rip-offs, this is "feeded" through history as described above.

Richard.

(for now an extra note,...I am not a "copyer", I allway's want the original effect but sometimes you must look further the black and white.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rsmagic:
[QB] How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy

****************************************************************************************************

Randy,


So, back to magic,.....If an inventor has invented a trick with a match and a deck of cards, he can not ask for example $40.00 for it.
Simple! (I do not know the name now of that person, sorry,..this is also not personal,...I use this as an example)


And here is the next problem,....when I by a trick and it is realy crap, I do not get my money back because of "knowing now the explanation of the effect"
This is not right also!!

Hypatheticaly, if you invented, say an 'invisible from all angles' gimmick, that when added to your shoes, enabled you to 'levitate' surrounded, in the open, yet only cost a couple of dollars to produce. What would you consider a 'fair' price for an effect such as that?

Thought I would copy this from penguin before it was closed or deleted. Every time I post something it vanishes. This is apparently a response from one of the people from P-Magic regarding the MM debacle.

You know. I'm not entirely satisfied with this. It still leaves issues open and untouched, and in some cases, makes things worse. Who made an agreement with whom, and if there was one made, why is the creator not aware of it.

David.

Acar[/QUOTE]You know. I'm not entirely satisfied with this. It still leaves issues open and untouched, and in some cases, makes things worse. Who made an agreement with whom, and if there was one made, why is the creator not aware of it.

David. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I have tried to post a reply but I get the message: INVALID SESSION. They will not let me post a response. Maxwell and all at Penguin have got my e.mail add. and my home phone number etc. etc. but I get nothing. No replies to e.mails and no Phone call's are returned.

As one inventor whose work has been taken public without permission, to another whose work is being copied, Colin...

It makes us look more like sane citizens when we state our desires, and intentions in a way that folks can understand. It also helps to phrase these sentiments in a way that allows the rest of the community to sympathize and perhaps be moved to assist in the efforts.

What would you like to happen? What does your authorized vendor want to happen?

Okay, enough sanity for one day ... back to my usual ranting about abstract stuff.

I would like to stop the sale of Magic Mints.
If by my Authorised vendor you mean Martin Breese then I imagine he would like the same. I hope thats what you needed to know, I'm sorry if it isn't but (I don't want to apper dumb here) I don't really understand the question.

Colin, what is your's and/or Martin's affiliation with Magic City? How do they come into play in this issue?

Did you register on the Penguin forums, first? It is easy to do; otherwise, I can't imagine why you are unable to post there.

Colin Gilbert and Penguin have no agreement whatsoever. I can not believe the lies that are spread about a simple magic trick. What is Magic City's involvement? Magic City are my exclusive US distributors and they sell Linking Lifesavers that I buy from Colin Gilbert. I have made Penguin an offer to purchase the US manufacturing rights from Colin for the sum of $5000 to end this problem and we await and answer. Let me repeat that Colin and Penguin have not entered into any agreement so far. Colin has not authorised the production of this rip off item. Magic Makers are presumably making this for Penguin on Penguin's instructions which allow Penguin to say that they are not making this trick and just selling it. What a devious way to do business! The mind boggles.
Martin

Origionally, (from what I recall) Penguin had stated that Magic City was the manufacturer of Magic Mints. Have you or Colin contacted them?

Sorry, this is what Maxwell had stated.
"I have never spoken with Colin directly. The deal was put together through Magic City (the US distributor of the Linking Lifesavers item). (That's where I sent your check, Colin.)"

Has anyone asked Magic City what they have to say about this?

Stop! Stop! Stop!This is getting confusing now.
I supply Martin
Martin supplies Magic city.
Magic Maker's make the rip-off's and supply Penguin. Who Incendentally on this forum, Maxwell state's he has never had contact or spoken to me personaly, and now you have paste/quote from 'Acar' stating they 'made an agreement with the inventor'.

I would think that if Penguin really is in the clear on this one, that they would IMMEDIATELY PROVE it to Genii and then DEMAND that this topic be locked down, or else IMMEDIATELY withdraw all future advertising from that magazine.

I wonder if such discussions are presently ongoing?

I'm not going to make any comments about this thread at the moment other than to say this (and my statement is not meant to indicate that I'm "siding" with either party):

Penguin have publicly stated that they have paid Magic City (who is in fact the authorized distributor of this trick in the United States) a sum of money that is designated for the inventor.

I'm not really sure what that means, since the person who invented the trick, Colin Gilbert, and the person who supplies Magic City, Martin Breese, don't seem to know anything about this payment.

Someone DIRECTLY INVOLVED in this should really call Magic City and talk to one of the Kirchners and get a clear picture of exactly what's going on before going ballistic on this Forum.

So I would greatly appreciate if everyone just cools it for a while until this vital piece of information has been obtained.

Colin, I've read this thread twice now, and I truly feel for your position.

The problem with any set of internal "laws" or governing body is it finds itself in the same sort of situation as do gun control laws. The premise behind them is noble, but the object of the law -- both literally and figuratively -- seeks to modify the behavior of people who have already shown a propensity to ignore laws in the first place.

It's like threatening to kick Penn & Teller out of the IBM when they are not a member in the first place.

We cannot shame pirates into compliance. The only thing we can do is encourage other like minded people to avoid doing business with pirates. And that goes for people who support pirates, too.

What's left is fighting the good fight. Telling your story and relying on good and decent people to do what's right. That's the council Jim Steinmeyer gave to me ten or twelve or so years ago and it's as relevant today as it was then.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

Actually, it's due to the fact that they haven't updated their forums software (I know because I do official tech support for phpBB) and you're likely using something like aol or another isp that causes problems with their out of date forums software. (this being the main cause of the "invalid session" issue) It's likely not anything insidious, just plain laziness on the part of their tech person.

However, phpBB is an open source project (read free) and in return for its use, the developers ask only that those running the script keep the phpBB copyright link (in tiny text) at the bottom of each forum. I notice that the penguin forums (which use phpBB) have made sure to remove that copyright notice. I guess this disrespect for the developers of a script they use for free should not come as a surprise.


______________________________________________________
www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums'

"Colin" (if it is really you) :rolleyes:

even if your accusations are true.....why not be a gentlemen about it and go about this whole situation more civilized?

Instead you would prefer to stir up controversy on the genii forums?

The smarter move would have been to try harder to contact Max or Acar......they are both very busy guys and it is understandable that phone messages can be forgotten. Don't you think?

did you ever consider the fact that they could very well be paying php for such thing?

stealing is stealing, magic or mp3, there is no justification for stealing anything...ever.

now that we have that solved....

Penguin magic are a group of good guys (they're human and mistakes like all of us do)

I've known them for a long time now and they have the best intensions. If they say they paid to have it then they did, if not then it's a simple missunderstanding... put down the rope..

It's amazing how often forums are used to bitch about things when a simple conversation with the person themselves would have solved the problem.

Instead we like to smear people through the gutter while bitching back and forth with stupid points with no REAL value to each other (because nobody listens in these sorts of conversations)just so that we can become a pack of wolves!

So.. please... contact these people, be polite to them when you talk, your limited "perspectives" can make you look very small in the end when you're wrong.

-Joel Payne

Did you ever consider that I work for the developers of phpBB in an offical capacity and can state with some authority that no such option has ever been offered? We (the official support team) are even instructed to withold support for those rude enough to begrudge the creators their very small copyright notice. (You know, folks like Penguin) It's not technically illegal to remove it, but it is a crappy thing to do, depriving the creators of even the most cursory credit (said ity bitsy copyright line) for something they kindly offer for free.

To wit (from the official phpBB site)

Quite simply put, you don't know what you're talking about. I've spoken with the developers and they take a very strong view against those who can't even be bothered to credit them (in a way that cost the user nothing) for their hard work.

And like some others here, I'm not about to take folks seriously who have need to hide behind a pseudonym. Merely saying "well, it's the pseudonym I use on all the other forums" does not lend you one iota of additional credibility.

I remember several months ago when someone from the phpBB developers group or support team showed up on the Penguin boards, making the point that Penguin had removed their copyright notice. Actually, here is the thread:

http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=48663

Check cowboy's response back then. At least his ignorance on the matter is consistent.

This may or may not be relevant, but on browsing through some old Geniis last night I saw a product review of Colin Gilbert's Linking Lifesavers, and the supplier was Tannens. It must have been a 1980s or early 1990s issue - I can check again if it's of any interest. If not, just ignore this post.

I have tried a lot harder to contact them than they EVER tried to contact me. If you found out you were being 'robbed' would you wait for the people responsible to contact you? They have got all the contact info they require to contact me-if they had done so, do you really believe I would waste mine or anybody else's time with this? Don't you think?
Why don't you send a message to Max and Acar and 'jog' their memories for me?

Since no one has paid any attention to my post, I'm locking this thread.
I will open the thread again once one of the people directly involved contacts Magic City and gets a straight answer regarding Penguin's claim of sending them a check for the inventor. So, once that's been done, e-mail me privately with the request to unlock the thread and post the result of the phone call.

This message just in from Maxwell Murphy of Penguin:

I'm sorry I haven't been able to address this sooner and in more detail.
I've been out of town at a funeral. Here's exactly what happened.

I became aware that the Magic Mints product was about to be released
by Magic Makers.

I called up Gerald at Magic City and told him about the product. Magic City is the US distributor of the Linking Lifesavers effect so I figured he was in communication with the people producing Linking Lifesavers. I told Gerald that I wanted to carry the Magic Mints because it's a great trick and at $14.95 it would be a great value for our customers. I asked Gerald to contact Colin Gilbert to see if he could put together a deal to give us permission to market Magic Mints as an authorized version of Linking Lifesavers.

Gerald got back to me a couple of days later with a dollar figure. If we paid Colin Gilbert x dollars he would "authorize" the new less expensive version of the Linking Lifesavers effect.

As soon as I had this authorization I contacted Magic Makers, Inc. and informed them that I had purchased the rights to sell Magic Mints as an
authorized version of Linking Lifesavers, and I purchased their entire stock on the item. That's why you don't currently see Magic Mints on
their website--they're out of stock.

I sent the check to Colin Gilbert (through Magic City), and I made a special trip to New York to film the demo of Magic Mints with Oz. We got
great footage and released the product with great excitement. Everything was perfect. I felt great about the deal.

The next thing I heard was that Martin Breeze (Colin's UK distributor of Linking Lifesavers) was upset. I called Gerald and asked him why we were
taking heat from Martin. He said that Martin wasn't happy about the deal we made with Colin. I didn't pay too much attention to it because Colin
was our guy and he had made a deal with us.

I was busy working for the next few days... Focusing on the show we're producing and putting together the final details for our Escape for the
Troops fund raiser.

Finally, yesterday, I heard that someone claiming he was Colin had posted saying that he had never heard of us and that we never made a deal with
him. My first response was to call Gerald at Magic City. I told Gerald what I had read on the Genii forum. Gerald said "that's crazy". I said,
"do we have a deal with Colin?" He said, "yes".

Gerald is one of the most honorable people in the magic world. He runs one of the top distributors of magic in the world. I don't think he's
lying to me. He has nothing to gain by lying to me.

We tried to do it right by paying for permission to sell the item, and it just went wrong. I have been in e-mail communication with Colin as of two
days ago, and I'm working with Gerald to find out how the deal ended up looking so different from each side.

Sincerely,

Maxwell Murphy
Penguin Magic

So why don't you contact ME direct? Why do I have to keep going on about it on here? There are more interesting things going on in the Magic World than you getting 'free' publicity on here. From my point of view and many others that actually know you, it appears that YOU ARE A LIAR AND A CHEAT and have no place within the magic community.This isn't the first case you have had to defend. Yes you may do charitable things, but you make sure everyone gets to know about it. Genuine charitable workers do not broadcast their good work at every opportunity. One last time, Withdraw Magic Mints or contact me direct. No more posting on here what you supposedly did what with who-ever and when, people want to see this resolved. So resolve it with the correct person.

Why would Colin Gilbert the inventor of Linking Lifesavers ever accept the idea of endorsing Magic Mints as an authorised version of his own effect? Maxwell is talking a lot of nonsense.

Where is the cheque that Maxwell has supposedly given to Colin Gilbert? Colin hasn't seen it.

I have had enough of this subject and hope that Penguin take themselves off to hibernate whilst they think about how stocking and selling rip-off products encourages piracy!

If I'm reading the discussion correctly, we are now looking at Magic City and pondering a break in communications between Colin and the folks at Penguin. Martin is also surprised as he was not informed of any new distribution agreement by Colin.

I'm not good at following complicated stories. Is the plot status above about right? I get confused.

I was contacted by Martin to inform me that he had been informed that Penguin were selling a rip-off of my effect. He had contacted them and they had offered me $1000 'damages'. I told Martin I wasn't inerested in any 'pay-off' (please read Martins original post that started this topic) I also contacted Penguin by 'phone and e.mail but no response. They continue to advertise and still use my name. They now say they did a 'deal' in my absence with Magic city, (though not Martin personally). They state that they put this so called 'deal' together and sent the check and then bought out the entire stock from Magic Makers. I asked 'Max' when he started selling magic mints and what was the date on the check. Surely the date on the check should be at least a couple of days prior to when they started selling Magic Mints? In the one short e.mail I recieved back he stated that couldn't remember when he started to sell them and he couldn't remember what the date on the check was. This 'Check' that he supposedly sent to Magic city has still yet to arrive. Anywhere.

Surely if Penguin have obtained the rights to sell this version of Magic Mints, via Colin Gilbert or Martin Breese (it seems that one of these two would be the correct person to obtain the rights from, not Magic City who appear to be simply a distributor) then... there's a contract ?!

If there's no contract or anything similarly binding then I don't see how Penguin can lay claim to anything. Isn't it that simple - or have I misunderstood something here ?

Penguin could settle this here and now by declaring the existence of this contract. If there isn't a contract and Penguin continue to sell without permission then I imagine it's headed to the courts.

BTW, Max... just a thought - if you DID send a cheque payable to Colin Gilbert, you may want to check if it's been cashed and if it has, find out what bank the cheque was paid in to. I imagine it should be a UK bank but if it's a U.S. bank perhaps something murkier is going on ;-)

Let us know... this beats any soap opera on TV at the moment!

Jamie.

Max has my B.S. detector going off big time. Magic City agreed to let another company produce a knock off that sales at a much lower cost? That defies logic.
Steve V

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rnaviaux:
Thought I'd get this in before this thread gets locked.

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem Randy, and may all your guilt be by association. Do you really want to know, or was this a demand that others feel bad about themselves?

The stated goal here is to find ways to do better than we have. "


Jonathan Townsend

My point was this: I have met several magicians that have explained how stealing magic is bad. All of them had downloaded music from Napster and freely admitted it to me. They didn't seem contrite to say the least. In fact they bragged about how many songs they had in their "collection".

Personally, if you are stealing I find it hard to take you seriously when you start to complain about someone else doing it. (Double Standard?)


Sincerely,

Randy

Edited for clarity

Im sure max is lying ALL the way.

This is NOT the only knock off item penguin is selling.

Change happens at the insistence of those who will it.
Significant change requires more commitment than righteousness.

Beyond open discourse, what would serve to get us further along toward a positive outcome here?

Ethics! That's the answer.

But let us not cover ourselves with a warm nice blanket of being small individuals versus large corporations etc.

Being ethical is not doing more good than harm or stealing only from those who can affoard it. But we use that logic, don't we? It is okay to download music sold by Sony because it doesn't hurt anyone. How many has used that argument?

It is okay to advertise an effect with hyperbole because the reader should know better. Sounds familiar?

Everybody is doing it. I spend so much money on crap I deserve to copy this. I didn't know. There is no law agaist it. It all just sounds so very familiar (and I plead guilty for all counts).

Ethics starts from doing what is required by regulations, norms, and social contracts. But it does not stop there, it will continue by doing what one thinks is right. If in doubt, don't do it.

I am upset when I read a description of an effect and after buying it I see that it was all just a well written copy. Where is the ethics in that?
Or when I receive an expensive item that is readily being sold in a hardware store across the road for a fraction of the price. Now is that fair?

I think everyone should take a good look into the mirror and consider their own actions. After that, go and do business with those who you believe has also been staring at their mirror.

In defence of magazines:
That all being said I would still like to defend Genii and Magic magazine. Why? Because I am also involved with media related business, I can truly feel for them. Magazines are not selling any items directly. They need people to buy the magazine and companies to advertise in them. That way we can get quality writing (dare I say journalism) for a reasonable price every month. With such a business it is crucial to get those advertisers because otherwise there would be no readers. So what can they do? With a magic store the business is different.They can make their profits by selling original items, there should be no real reason for knock-offs other than greed (that is, if the original seller are holding their end of the bargain and constantly try to find ways of producing the items effectively).

In my pecking order, in this case, for ethical behaviour the first one is the maker, then the dealer, thirdly the customer (yes, we do have responsibilities), and only the fourt place would be reserved for any sort of advertising medium.

Naturally I would find it odd if after this discussion there would be ads specifically dedicated to knock-off items but I cannot see how a magazine could survive without 4-6 pages of advertisements (I don't believe there is a long waiting list for the advertisement space in any magic medium).

What's the point of my rant? We should all act ethically. The dealers, the creators, the customers, and the supporting media. Yes, naive isn't it? But it is the only way out of this mess and it will serve everyone. That way we would have more inventions available, and better prices. As a magician and a customer, would you relese an invention you made? Soon most people may say no.

Please note, I did not want to refer to any specific company or person because I think this is valid no matter the outcome of the current debate. I also believe this "bigger picture" is the reason this thread is so heated.

in answer to Randy,

Yes Randy, I have done stupid and regrettable things. I have met few people who have not done stupid and regrettable things. I have also met some people who have moved ahead and now choose not to do stupid and regrettable things.

Rather than wallow in the past, I am suggesting we spend some time focusing on the benefits of moving forward.

While we await clarification on the particular issue that brought forth these threads, we can consider what the issue means to us, and how we might like to see these issues handled in the future. I've invested some effort posting some options and suggestions.

What are your thoughts?