Check out Hermetic Press' web site...

The Protocols of the Elders of Magic. "Only 1 secret, but it's a killer!" 214 pages, limited edition of 500, $50

No description of what's in it, and with a title like that the mind boggles. Perhaps it will unveil that all the worlds problems are caused by a secret cabal of..magicians?

http://www.hermeticpress.com/

Will this be a thing of terrifying beauty?

Excellent. Probably a "useful" book too. I bet it would be just right to leave almost hidden so people can ask about it.

I just got an e-mail that all 500 copies (well 496) have been sold. I bought one and I wish I knew what I was getting.

Like the other 499 of us, you are getting two-tenths of one percent of an entire limited production run of a book written by a highly respected author, published by a highly repected publisher. You are getting a signature -- hopefully on the inside of the book -- by the man who wrote it. You are getting bragging rights. For pity's sake man, what more do you want? Full disclosure? What's wrong with you?

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.con/blog/

John LeBlanc wrote:


Clay

Shane,

Since this book is sold out, there is no point in disclosing the “secret” or giving a review since it will serve no practical purpose.

I for one, will not be login on any newsgroups as of November 15th (date the books ships) until I finish reading it.

Do not expect me to post a review or even talk about it in an open forum once it ships.

This is one secret that should be kept by the 500 owners.

Yeah, right... like you could keep Erdnase's real name a secret.

To start with, the guy's name was not a secret, it was just too much for the folks of the time to bother investigating.

Likewise the secret of the book will likely be on the chats soon enough.

Nice marketing though.

pierredan wrote:
I guess it depends on the meaning of "practical purpose," but assuming the purpose of a book review is not always to sell copies (which is quite true), I think there are many other reasons why a book review remains appropos despite a book's sold-out status.

Clay

Let's respect the Secret!
Secrets are one of the most important tools that Magic Fraternity has got to preserve themselves.
I love Secrets!
And since i'll soon be the owner of this precious book, i'll keep the secret.
I can speak about it only with close and trusty friend magicians.
But surely enough i will not post anything about it on the internet.
Let the secrets grow, let our Art rebirth!
Crim

I almost missed this one. Mr. Minch said that when I called he only had 8 copies left. Whew.

He told me just enough to keep me interested, but I ain't tippin' any of it.

Looking forward to it.

Jonathan!

Clarity my man!

If ignorance = secrets, you have no worries!

Clay

Ah that wonderful line from the "Rocky Horror Picture Show" about quivering with anticipation.

ROFL

The book has a nice title and will likely prompt many a "What's that?" from folks if you leave it in view.

That, unfortunately is pretty much the problem IN our craft.

I don't like secrets. More a necessary burden than a "bragging rights" thing IMHO. Each brings a responsibility to the giver and to the provenance of the material entrusted.

Just to confirm for everybody on the thread:

I called, and the book is now completely sold out.

Congratulations to all who have their copy, and let it be known that I'm supremely jealous - but I can handle it - it's all for the Art.

And what an excellent way to generate interest - hats off!

Recieved mine today. I smiled and thought to myself "Brilliant!"

I'd love to hear some comments on this "book"

I received mine and thought, "That's it??"

I'll admit that it grows on you some, but I think that the marketing was more "brilliant" than the book. After all, if you had known in advance what it was, would you have plunked down the $50?

I think not.

Bob

Okay, so beyond "bragging rights" does the book have any utility?

Oh come on First it was only $50. Docc Hillford has sold super-uber-super-secrets for a lot more than that. Second, there was absolutely no info on what it was about. Third it was by Max Maven. No disrepspect meant to Mr. Maven, but if I was him and saw how much his books have gone for on the 'bay over the years, I would be mightily tempted to release such a book where each page simply had the number "42" on it .

This way to the Egress....

Kewl, I guess this means we are in store for a collection of Dai Vernon's kids paintings and drawings he kept on the fridge over the years that inspired him to come up with the material in his "secrets" books. How about the cocktail napkins Lewis Ganson used to take notes ( or authorized copies thereof) for the deluxe edition?

Strange, but I can almost see a market for the cocktail napkin book you mention

And some of us paid and were not happy with the value received. Besides, I'm not sure comparing Docc and Max is such a fair rasslin' match.

That's correct. And absent any specific information, I'd venture to say most of us relied on our respect for both Maven and Minch -- respect earned over the course of many years.

Maybe you would, Robert, but I don't expect Max or Stephen to do so. And Prism certainly demonstrated a level of restraint that should be acknowledged.

I'm going to withhold judgement on this unpleasant little book for a little while longer.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

Re: The Protocols of the Elders of Magic

It's a thing of beauty.

Production, as usual, was exquisite.

Mr. Minch advertised exactly what it wasn't.

His response to orders--mine at least--was precisely worded, and exactly right.

Mr. Maven executed it with erudition, and a black, mordant glee.

(The title, itself, may be worth $50.00.)

It was a satisfying read and makes me grin every time I think of it.

Deep thanks to all involved.

gordo

Interesting.. on ebay ... prices already vary between 75$ and 275 check here

Jacky
www.magicbooks.be

I love the fact that two of the sellers can't even get the title correct.

Matt Field

Hmmm, I must have missed that. The only changes I see (at least in the auctions for the Maven book) is that some do not include "The" in the title.

Here\'s a link to only the magic book auctions, instead of a listing including that other book.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

I'm very very disappointed by all the people who are selling or will sell their "PROTOCOLS" on ebay.
It is your right to sell your book..
but it seems to me very early to see the book on ebay right now.
It's a shame..
i think that all the people who are selling their "PROTOCOLS" are not true magic lovers.
It was designed to be a secret..
so at least you should have waited some months or maybe years, before selling it.
But i think the best thing to do was for the 500 owners of the book..never to sell it and..
to keep the SECRET!!
It's only my humble opinion but i feel that there is no more culture of the secret.
I expected to see some U2 ticket for sale on ebay the same day the ticket went out..but never and never i expected this little book on ebay so early.
I think that the people who are selling this book now, shouldn't deserve to buy other secret books.
It is only my humble opinion and i'm waiting for opinions of yours, also in contrast with mine.
Let me know what you magic lovers think.
Best regards.
Crim

It it my understanding that one of the reasons the book sold out so quickly is that several people ordered multiple copies, as many as 5 in one case. No doubt this was done in some cases as an investment, with the intent to resell at a profit. Which is what seems to be happening on eBay now...

Crimsonking

Well, I bought three copies.

One for a friend, one for my permanent library and one for speculation (such as “Cards as Weapons” which I do not own because of the outrageous price this is going for).

Maybe I'll sell my spare copy now, maybe in a few years; maybe it will make a special gift one day.

I did not receive them yet, so I cannot confirm or deny that “It was designed to be a secret”.

It seems to me that if this book was really meant to be limited distribution and that no copies would be offered for sale on eBay, it should have been limited to one book per customer.

If it's so important that it be kept secret, then why was it published?

Dave

Maybe one thing is right.
That it should have been limited 1 copy per customer.
When i speak about secrets, i want only to say that it would be a nice thing if there were more secrets in this Art and Craft.
I think Magic is a field which gives great space for secrets.
Secrets are the base of this wondeful Art.
I mean.. it is nice to buy copies for magic friends etcc..
but i don't like the idea to sell the book so early on ebay.
Now i'm speaking strictly for "THE PROTOCOLS" book.
It would have been nice if all the owners had waited a little longer before selling their copies on ebay.
I live in Italy and i'm still waiting for my copy.
I would have loved if all the owners would have ketpt their secret a little longer.
Just that.
If you think about it..
what a wonderful thing would be if only 500 people in the world would know the "PROTOCOLS" secret.
Maybe who among you who have received your book, don't think the secret is worth.
But i think that the concept of keeping a secret would be great!
In these days too many people can "buy" all the magic secrets if they want.
this would have been an exception.
Too late.
Maybe in the future..
maybe..
Crim

First, the item was not designed as a secret to be held precious by a few. It was a publicly offered and advertised item.

There is a post elsewhere asking about the cost of trust and the price of secrets.

Bemoaning that one one can buy secrets with dollars and treat magic items as property?

Or just whining that kids on the internet will be downloading the scanned book on torrent or P2P systems before you get to revel in having a secret?

Pity would be wasted.

is "Crimson King" a reference to the group and album of similar name?

I'm not bemoaning at all.
I just expressed my opinion.
And i'm very open to all of yours opinion.
I don't want to make you change idea.
For what concerns me, my "PROTOCOLS" will never be on sale.
The name Crimsonking comes from...
oops.
It's a secret!

Maybe the secret of the book isn't the point. Maybe, in part, it's a demonstration to see who has the integrity to abide by a simple request.

Not telling the secret takes no more effort than telling the secret. So what's left is integrity.

John
Getting Close.

http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

I think Mr. John LeBlanc posted a great message.
It was the point i was trying to make.
Maybe i focused too much on the "secret".
The point is Mr.Minch asked a very simple thing.
Why ruin it all selling the "PROTOCOLS" on ebay after 2 minutes!
Yes..
Integrity..
Integrity!..
and Secret!
Crim

Jonathan T. wrote:
I think the name of the group was actually King Crimson - not a bad band either.

Clay

Well I'd like one, if for no other reason than the punnish title, but I'm not going to pay scalpers for it. I'm sure curious as to whether this isn't some form or interesting social experiment by Mr. Maven.

I purchased a copy of the book as soon as I learned that it was going to be published. It arrived this morning.

Knowing Max as well as I do, I knew that he must have had something of value to offer the magic fraternity. Considering how much of value he has given us in the past for so little money, in many cases, I felt that even if only one secret were revealed, it would be worth it.

The contents of the book were not revealed to me ahead of time. However, they were not a secret to me, either. Nevertheless, to find the depth to which Brother Maven has researched this secret was worth the price of the book to me.

It may not be to someone else, but hey! Different horses, different courses.

Ars longa, vita brevis.

They did have a track called (if memory serves) At the Court of the Crimson King. So Crimson King and King Crimson would both be valid references.

Dave

This wonderfully unpleasant little book arrived at chez Marsh this morning...

Had I known the secret, I may not have purchased it. That would have been a mistake. Mr. Minch's comments about knowing the secret before reading the book are, in my view, dead on -- it is a lot like hearing the punchline before the setup.

The amount of work that went into this is staggering.

N.

I received my copy and immediately set to reading it. A few pages in I realized what I was reading and became absolutely giddy. I could barely wait to turn the next page. I can honestly say it was one of the most inspirational reads I've done in ages. It thoroughly invigorated me.

Thank you, Mssrs. Maven and Minch, for the work, the production values, and the secret. I am proud to add this book to my library.

Eric Rose

I don't understand something!
On ebay there is a copy of the "PROTOCOLS" which is going for 250 dollars.
In the description it says that it is the only copy signed by both the author and the publisher.
Is it possible?
Very strange.

You left out a key word: "...only known copy..."

That could easily mean that it is the only known copy as far as the sell is concerned.

Had I asked Mr. Minch to sign my copy as well, I suspect he would have agreed. In fact, I didn't think of it, I was so happy to get the number I wanted!

Dustin

Dustin,

What number did you ask for?

I'm still waiting for mine.

Dustin, you are correct in how you have parsed the words of the Ebay seller when it comes to the "only known" phrase, but IMHO it still wreaks of misleading or sensationalistic advertising, and is an insult to the intelligence of buyers. I wonder what Minch thinks knowing his signature is being hawked in such a manner? Clay

Clay: I agree--it's a typical marketing ploy I see all the time. The perpetrator simply gets to say, "Well, I didn't lie."

Dustin
(Who loves, and received, the number 13).

Wowweee! I got my multiple copies in today. anybody want a copy at $100.00 postpaid? Nice bookbinding. Max Maven signature.
Email me and let me know.

As far as letting the secret out - what does it matter if someone buys it from me, someone on Ebay, or straight from Hermetic Press? The book is still the same. The secret is still the same. The info in the book is still the same. The person that pays $100.00 for a book that originally sold for $50.00 is more apt to keep the secret to themself also. This book has no instructions supplied.

Email me if you want a copy - just in time for Christ mas - mrmagician@bellsouth.net .

G arry Hayes / Nashville, TN

Count me in (I just sent you an e-mail)! The suspense has finally gotten to me (and I, for one, am good at keeping a secret).

I find that distasteful.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

"distasteful"

Yeah, me too. But I'm not surprised. I'm more surprised that the publisher didn't make at least a mild attempt to ensure 1 per customer though.

I like a good joke:

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Last-Attempt-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:35:50 -0500 (EST)

Much of the commentary speaks to the business of magic. And the culture which fosters such.

Does this sort of "demand" marketing have utility outside of magic and perhaps beanie babies?

John and Robert,

Calm down fellows. I have paid double and triple the original cost for several short print magic books, similar to the Protocol book. I was actually glad to get them at the inflated prices I paid. I was glad to see someone else had bought multiples. That allowed me to get a copy.

Those that purchased Protocol from Hermetic Press, purchased them blind, not knowing what they were getting. I am not going to sell any at this time (except one to Evan). I would like to make a prediction and say the cost will escalate to $250.00 - $300.00 a copy in less than three months. There are only 500 copies. Many are sitting on several copies. I must add that there were full page ads in major magic magazines advertising this book. So everyone had a chance to get one - at least 500 people had a chance. It is a neat book. Good Luck in finding a copy.

Yes, my email address did have fatal errors. It should be corrected by now. My original post was posted as a joke. I really did not expect to have any "takers".


G arry Hayes

I was thinking tulips not beanies.

I hope Mssrs Minch & Maven have been chronicaling this bold campaign from conception to incu-Ebation.

As soon as the first individual bought multiple copies, the number of people having a chance to purchase them from the publisher at the publisher's price decreased from 500. Given that more than one person purchased multiple copies, one reportedly as many as 5, I'd guess only 450 or so were able to obtain their copies on the publisher's terms. I understand that by the time the full page ad appeared in LINKING RING, all 500 copies had already been reserved. I also understand that the advertisements in other publications were pulled once they became moot. So really only those who received "advance word" via the publisher's emailing, website and word of mouth (such as this forum) had a chance to obtain copies and then only if they acted promptly. I'm not complaining, I got mine (and am well pleased with it, I might add). But if I were a collector of magical literature who did not have access to internet resources and was rebuffed upon attempting to order after finding out about the book belatedly (through no fault of one's own), I'd likely be a bit miffed...

Some of those who purchased the book exclusively for the "secret" will likely be reselling their copies once the secret is known to them, diminishing whatever "value" that secret might have had. I predict prices will settle down around $100 or less once the nature of said "secret" becomes more widely known...

Garry:

We’ve helped each other out in the past and I’ve very much enjoyed my private exchanges with you. On the other hand, you have voiced your opinions strongly here. I hope the following “criticism” is accepted in the spirit of a candid but amicable exchange of views, for “criticizing” you is not done with any glee.

I don’t like it when folks stock up on multiple (as opposed to maybe two, one for reading and one for collecting, perhaps) copies of a book with profit in mind. Admittedly, one could argue that this problem starts with the publisher, and that a publisher should limit the number of copies sold to a private party. However, Garry, unless the publisher limited sales to one copy per person, it is obviously incorrect to say that 500 people had their chance to buy a copy if there were several people who purchased multiple copies. The math doesn’t add up.

But if you are going to be criticized for this mini-commercial venture of yours, then at least it should also be said that you are not being a hypocrite about it. It sounds like you’ve faced the same problem with others hoarding a book for profit, but instead of whining about it, you have ponied up the “inflated” price and have been grateful for the chance to get a copy. So at least you are consistent in your view, whether it hurts you or helps you. I’ll give you that.

Back to the question of whether or not Hermetic Press should have limited the number of copies sold to one person. Every publisher I’ve talked to has told me that publishing magic books is risky business. Although there are exceptions, I would guess that a publisher generally has no idea if a magic book will be a hit or not. He/she might be relieved to sell multiple copies. 500 copies may not be a very large print run, but it also doesn’t seem like an unusually small one either for a magic book. Perhaps Hermetic Press has promised in its ads not to reprint the book. But if it hasn’t, there’s nothing to keep it from doing a reprint, in which event watch how fast the hoarders start “dumping” copies.

Clay

P.S. The foregoing was drafted and submitted before I read Richard's post above - guess a refresh of the web page may be helpful before sending a post! Richard, if you get this, please call me re your voice-mail. C.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But your post prompts me to ask whether whether that extends to other items. A while ago, when buying claret en primeur, I bought quite a few cases from one property, with the definite intention of selling some of them later for profit. (Actually, I enjoyed it so much that they were all consumed. And without any regrets. But the intention had been there.)

Given that that was also a limited edition item (in that nobody can ever manufacture any more wine of that year from that property), were my intentions "bad"?

In fact, the product that I purchased for profit was more limited-edition than the book, since later copies of the book could be printed, if necessary. (They won't be, but they could be.)

I don't really see why purchasing for profit is deemed bad. But I sympathise with people who were unable to purchase the book.

(By the way, I didn't purchase one copy of the book, let alone several copies.)

Dave

You are comparing the wine industry with the magic industry? And comparing a bottle of wine with a magic book? Sorry, I know your intentions were to show how one is no worse than the other, but I think your analogy falls short.

I didn't say someone should not -- or be forbidden -- to do such a thing. Even though Stephen could have instituted a limit and he didn't, I still find it distasteful in this case, especially given that there were only 500 copies to begin with.

Then again, this has been (and continues to be) an interesting experiment in how magicians in 2005 behave when handed the opportunity to obtain a highly limited edition item from a respected author and publisher.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

... and perhaps this leads us to a larger topic
(perhaps for another thread) of the Pimping of Magic.

The current trend of television Magic shows becoming commercials for the effects they will sell to the general public is something I think worthy of discussion.

- entity

I bought two copies of the book. One goes to my personal collection, and the other will sit in my very short "Pay it Forward" pile until the right moment arrives. I have done the same thing with Juan Tamariz's Mnemonica, with The Magic of Ascanio, and with several children's books of magic. Here's how it works; at the right moment and with the right deserving individual, I give them the book as a gift. But there is a big "string" attached; at some time in the future they must perform a similar random act of kindness for one or more deserving souls. Not an idea that is original with me; I stole it from the movie "Pay It Forward". So far I have given away several of the children's books, and one autographed copy of Mnemonica. I know that the value of those books will be multiplied many times over by their new owners.

Don't bother with the cute comments claiming to be a "deserving individual" and asking for copies. As the old joke goes, "A wallet has been found; all those claiming to have lost it please form a line on the right".

I'n not comparing any industry with any other industry.

Nor am I comparing any product with any other product.

I'm merely wondering whether or not buying for investment an item that's available in strictly limited quantities is an ethical thing to do. I could have done so without citing my own purchases. But it was own purchases that made me ponder the question, and that's why I mentioned them.

I still maintain that it's a general question, regardless of the industry and regardless of the product.

Dave

PS - I love your blog, John. I check it daily.

PPS - If and when you sell limited-edition excerpts from your blog, I'll only buy one, and not for investment.

For years I've done basically the same thing, though with what I would consider to be great beginners books and done for people who show a sincere interest in learning magic: Henry Hay's "Amateur Magician's Handbook"; Hugard & Braue's "Royal Road..."; Jerry Mentzer's "Counts, Cuts, Moves, and Subtlety"; Wilson's Big Book; Ammar's book, and the occasional set of Tarbells (I don't even have a set at the moment. Time for a call to my friends at H&R.)

I mention this not for attaboys -- I don't need them, I don't want them, and it's not like I'm curing cancer or anything -- but rather to add another voice to this "program" and maybe entice a few more magicians to participate. There are plenty of ways to help magic grow and I think this is one of them.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

I think it's a damned fine question to ask, and I'm not berating you for asking it.

When I told The Cute Redhead about the book and how copies were already starting to show up on eBay -- thanks to multiple copy speculative purchases -- she remarked (without any prompting) that she thought that was unfair for people to purchase multiple copies since there were already so few to go around. Her moral "gut check" told her there was something inherently wrong with that in this case, and I happen to agree.

This cottage industry of magic has benefitted greatly from the communications miracle provided by nearly ubiquitous Internet access, but it has also taken it's knocks, too. A book that previously sold for a couple of dollars -- and rightly so -- skyrockets to hundreds of dollars because a few people ask questions about it ("Cards as Weapons"). On the other hand, you have to use a handgun to force some people to even pick up a copy of Henry Hay's book -- let alone read it -- which to this day can be found for just a couple of dollars when its value is easily in the hundreds.

"Not for investment"?! Oh, that hurts. Still, I'll pass this along to Mr. Minch later this week... (Thanks for the kind words. )

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

We seem to be in accord, John. In conjuring and in other industries, people buy multiple limited-edition items for investment, and that seems unfair when there aren't enough to go round in the first place.

If such activity needs to be prevented, that's up to the seller. (As I've encountered in the wine industry.)

And regarding your comment on Henry Hay's book, it's not only in conjuring circles that everybody wants to acquire "what's hot" but won't go near other equally good items.

My not for investment comment meant that I'd keep it - too valuable to me to sell it.

Dave

I'm just veeeery curious about that book. I' m a big fan of Maven and Minch and their work is always outstanding. The material they offer to the community is always a great bargain, regardless of the price...

Is it possible, at all, to give us a hint of an idea of what the book is about? I suppose it' s about presentation and theory and such...

I' d understand if you cant talk about it without giving too much away.

And I think the selling of the book on e-bay and other places is completely unacceptable. I just dont get it... Buy your copy, enjoy it, learn from it and cherish it and, when the time comes, maybe, "pay it forward" as it' s been said a few posts ago.

If I have a rare poster on my wall, and see one - a duplicate - at an estate sell going cheaply, and buy it, am I doing wrong also? Afterall, there will be no more made, and there are definately magicians who are interested. They just didn;t know about the sale and missed out. Am I doing wrong by not passing up the deal when I can use it to either trade for something with which to build my collection or sell for cash to buy something to build my collection?

Seems to me that anytime a magic dealer or collector has a duplicate of anything which they intend at some point to sell, this is to be condemned?

Or is it only when it comes to buying new products that are released on the market?

Or are dealers and collectors and regular guys to be held to a different standard?

There is only so much gold in the world, but if I buy some and sit on it hoping its value to acrue before I sell it, is that wrong? Seems if anything I am contributing the the very laws of supply and demand that make secondary marketplaces work. Is there really a difference in investing in magic one thinks will acrue in value or in precious metals? Or should we only buy items we think will loose value in order to be ethically right (or limit ourselves in smart purchases)?

Yes/no?

Do I think it'd be wrong to pick up this poster with an eye towards selling it at a profit later? Of course not. But I don't think that's in the same category as this situation at all.

Coming out of the gate, there were only 500 copies made available. It cannot be honestly argued that anyone believed there would be more copies than buyers -- not for something from Maven and Minch.

It's my opinion that in this case it is morally wrong to purchase additional copies with the intent to take advantage of a secondary market any sane person knew would emerge immediately simply because there were so few copies and so many potential buyers. And that's mostly because it deprived a number of people from obtaining their own copy simply because those copies available to pre-order were being depleted by multiple-copy buyers, not because of individual demand. That's all.

Look, I'm as pro-capitalism as anyone you can meet, but I also believe in social ecology. And I'm not going to judge anyone beyond stating that I think it was not a nice thing to do to fellow magicians. Being not nice is not a crime, but I find it is a useful barometer of ethics and integrity.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

John Leblanc wrote: If that’s true, then perhaps some of the focus on the normative elements of this discussion should be on them – is anyone prepared to argue that Maven (if he had any say in how the book was distributed) and Minch fell short in fulfilling their “duties”? For if John is correct, then they produced a book for which demand far exceeded supply and then permitted non-retailers to buy multiple copies, thereby exacerbating the problem.

For my part, I’m not convinced that a quick sell-out was such a no-brainer, but to the extent it was, then what duty was owed by the author/publisher? The “condemned” multiple-copy buyers weren’t doing anything that they weren’t enabled to do by the publisher’s distribution policies.

If the last group of posts demonstrate anything to me, it is the inchoate nature of precisely defining “proper” behavior in a capitalistic society. Although I think most of Brad’s examples are not apt to the “hoarding” situation being discussed here, he does point out the difficulty in where to draw the line.

Clay

Well, like most everything else these days it seems, that line is not determined by the corporate membership of the magic community as a whole, but rather a personal decision; each man does what is right in his own eyes. If we ever had anything that could be akin to "community standards" I don't see much evidence of it today.

This issue is a small subset of the never-ending debate of what is and is not ethical behavior.

I spoke at length with Stephen this afternoon. I told him I was happy with my purchase, disappointed in the secondary market that sprouted like mushrooms after a rainstorm. And we agreed that it was nice to see the request to keep the contents hush-hush was, largely, being observed.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

Magicam, NO, I am most heartily NOT willing to say that Messrs. Minch and Maven fell short of their "duty" howsoever that may be defined. To use an overly odious comparison: that's like blaming a cop for when criminals commit a crime. It's the criminal that did it, and the blame lies with them.

But words like blame, duty, criminal, etc. are all way overboard here I think. It's more a case of "it's just too bad..." I can't help but be reminded of the story of Charley and the Chocolate Factory. Willy Wonka ran a campign for a very small number of kids to get the golden ticket, to allow them in on a tour of the never-seen secrets of Wonkas factory. One by one the ticket holders were eliminated due to their own greed. Finally the one left, Charley, was given the factory/business as Wonka felt that he would be the best caretaker.

In some sense I can't help but wonder if this book is sort of like the Golden Ticket. If I was Max Maven I'd find this experiement in social anthropology to be quite fascinating.

John, "social ecology". Boy I really like that phrase. I've never heard it before, but I'll sure use it in the future.

It appears a lot of dumping is going on right now on eBay. Both by people who bought multiple copies and those who were not satisfired with the book.

However, I have a feeling that once the books get into the right hands, owners won't be willing to part with their copies for anything less than many times the prices we are seeing on eBay presently.

I don't think it's an insult to the intelligence of buyers. Dustin figured it out, you figured it out. So, you're intelligent.

The question is whether anyone will figure that Stephen Minch's signature is worth $100 - $200. If so, I suppose he could be persuaded for a small fee to autograph books.

Has anyone stopped to think about how silly some of this quibbling is? You would think this book was a gallon of drinking water that someone who was a victim of a hurricane needed for survival, or perhaps one of those 50 pound sacks of sugar that nobody was supposed to have under their bed during WW II.

It's a book. There are 500 copies. A lot of them will be sold to other people. That's the way it goes. For some books, 500 is a large number of copies. For others, it's not enough.

Trust me. As valuable and interesting as this little book is, if you were thirsty, you would go for the gallon of water.

You would think this thing was a G.D. Beanie Baby. Or a Pog.

Perhaps a good thing for the publisher to do would be to state that "in case demand exceeds supply, buyers will be limited to one copy per person" - that way, people could pre-order multiple copies of they so desired, and if the demand fell short of the print run, they would receive all their copies. In the case of demand exceeding supply, 500 different individuals would have received one copy each.

Of course, undoubtedly there would have been more than a few who had wives and friends order on their behalf, but such a policy would probably have resulted in a wider distribution. It also covers the publisher's back in case of lack of demand from 500 different individuals.

Too late now - maybe next time.

Oh, and my opinion - FWIW - if the publisher is not going to put any such limits on buyers, then it is just sour grapes to berate those who were quick enough off the mark to grab a few copies with the intent to profit from them.

And no, I didn't get one either, and I would have liked one. But I was too late, wasn't I? C'est comme ca....

The Rocks of The Elders of Magic

Announcing a pleasantly attractive and decorative little pile of rocks, adorning my kitchen table, that will, within the next several weeks, be happily distributed to the magic fraternity. They don’t do anything but each has a single secret mark that can make you One Thousand Dollars!

For many weeks I have sat and stared at this little pile of rocks, (it turns out there are 123 of them), and, gradually, generosity welled up in my heart and I have decided to share these with my little magic friends* everywhere!

So, for a short time, I am offering the magic fraternity the opportunity to help me GET MY ROCKS OFF my table…

These stones, (no offense to any users out there), are so unusual I’m not going to tell you what I think you ought to do with them, (I shouldn’t say them, since I’m allowing only one to a customer), so, what to do with IT. Suffice to say, if you take advantage of this limited offer you’ll have something that few others do – “A ROCK OF THE ELDERS OF MAGIC”…

You can only order your rock from me. And don’t wait too long – this limited edition is expected to disappear quickly!

Only 123, (one hundred and twenty three), will be offered for sale, all inscribed with a secret number by me, Paul Chosse (O.K., my indomitable integrity forces me to admit that if I sell all of these I’ll probably “find” a few more…). Price per rock is only $49.95! And that means it’s five cents cheaper than you-know-what!

And for you cheapskates who resent this price remember that $1,000.00 Bucks! Unlike those “other guys”, I’m willing to give you the secret of how to get that 1 “large” right now:

If anyone offers you $1,000.00 Dollars for your rock – TAKE IT!

*Goyim purchases welcome!

Hmm, is that rock offer a hint as to what the secret in the book is?

Ethics?

"Supply meet Demand."
"Demand meet Supply."

Where supply meets demand is called price.

Certainly: It is not about presentation, theory, or such...

best,

N.

No one has been deprived from obtaining their own copy - they've just been deprived of obtaining a copy for only fifty bucks.

Someone likened it to ticket scalping.

Various amounts of money will go from pocket to pocket. Eventually the 500 individuals who covet this book the most, will have their own copy.

I believe the joke goes "A wallet has been found; will the owner please form a line on the right."


By the way, what would any of the people who find consider this a serious ethical discussion think of a magic shop that bought five copies and gave one away with the first five orders of $500 or more?

Or...

A wad of $100 bills with a rubber band around them, and no I.D. has been found. If the owner would like the rubber band back, please form a line to the right.

Or...

A wallet containing several hundred dollars has been found by actress Helen Hunt. If the owner would like to get it back go to Helen Hunt for it.

Ka Boom :whack:

The buying of multiple copies for resale is what comic book collectors do. They reduce something to its lowest, basest value (namely $).

Still awaiting my copy over here in England, but I think a treatise by Max Maven on finesses for Color Monte is well worth the money.

Whoa -- did I just let out the secret? Sorry about that.

Matt Field

I have not seen this book which apparently has not yet arrived in the U.K. but a better reason is that I have not purchased it!

The word "distasteful", although used earlier in this Forum in aother context, might have to apply to the book because of its title. "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is one of the most racist, anti-semitic publications of all time and has been banned in many places. Perhaps there are reasons for the title of the new book, I have too high an opinion of Stephen and Max to think they regard the bad taste as humourous but am open-minded in wishing to know the reason.

There are many ways to convey a thought in a book. One way used by many people is to just come right out and state it. It's direct, but not very intellectually stimulating. Another way appeals to the nature of some people to find meaning in the things they read.

You can call a man cruel and be done with it. Or you can say he once told you he loves butterflies -- especially the way they crawl around the window sill after he pulls their wings off. They say, essentially, the same thing.

Just mentioning "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" short-circuits the brain for most people -- they can't get past their most immediate reaction to it. Studying that "thing", its history, its impact is like asking someone off the street to conduct an autopsy on a six month old corpse; most would frown, express disgust, and be content to say "it stinks" and move on without ever discovering why the very concept of the book is fundamentally flawed.

But if you know enough about "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", by the time you get to the end of Maven's new book, you might find a few reasons for his selection of title. Max is many things, and provocative is one of them. (The word "provocative" is worth looking up, by the way.)

On the other hand, some people don't like reading Max's style. For them, this unpleasant little book only serves as yet another reason to not like Max's writing style.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

John, Thank you for your reasoning. I did mention that I had not read the book and so attempted not to make ignorance the basis of my comments, thus I appreciate your posting.I will try to read the book!

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Originally posted by Seb Talbot:
Is it possible, at all, to give us a hint of an idea of what the book is about? I suppose it' s about presentation and theory and such...
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Certainly: It is not about presentation, theory, or such...
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Thanx for the info, Nathan! It' s appreciated! I' ll just keep wondering...

Good day,
Seb

I have decided to reveal the secret, but there isn't much time, I can hear them trying to break the door in. This may cost me my life, but the book is all about the nnvm,//@3.....


MR. FARMER HAS BEEN TERMINATED WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE. OTHERS WHO ARE CONSIDERING BREAKING THE SILENCE BE WARNED: WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU ARE.

TIME TO SHUT DOWN MR. FARMER'S COMPUTER--